Vaccination required

[On the huh]

9 hours ago, carlos said:

If I were to hire someone to do a job inside my home, I would require that they are vaccinated. I don't want a person in my home who can infect me with the virus, the same as I wouldn't want a person in my home who doesn't wear a mask. I don't care about their reasons, I have to protect my family.

I have had customers who have asked whether we are vaccinated or not before agreeing to do a job inside their home.  At the moment I cannot say yes because of having only one dose.  All we can do is reassure them that we regularly test, wear masks and keep our distance.  But we have had ones who say no we can't do it.

Of course, I could say it works the other way round.  I don't want to catch it from a customer.  We ask if anybody has had symptoms recently.  That doesn't always prove anything.   One customer informed me that they had been fully vaccinated and it was alright if I wanted to remove my mask.  I declined and kept wearing it to be safe.

[Naturale]

9 hours ago, rocket said:

I was young, preteen, in the late 50's and early 60's when polio vaccine was being given out.  I don't remember anyone refusing the vaccine but news didn't travel as fast then.  I don't think very many teachers, doctors or nurses  would have refused or even thought of putting others at risk by refusing.  Today it is all about "ME" not "OTHERS" so it is definitely a different world.  Sad that so many get caught up in fake news and conspiracy theories.  Not to say that there is no danger with vaccines but it is proven to be beneficial to most people, risk vrs benefit.

Many of us have chosen not to have vaccinations and there are various different personal reasons why individuals make that decision.  It is a personal choice that each person has the freedom to make.  

[carlos]

12 hours ago, Nancy M said:

She would have read the “Golden Age” where the brothers at that time were strongly against vaccinations. I do realize the brothers changed their stance in the early 50’s and said vaccines were a personal choice

It's a widespread idea that Jehovah's Witnesses were against vaccines in the past but I haven't found any evidence of that. My impression after reading some magazines from that time is that vaccines were a personal choice, the same as they are now. I think it's more correct to say that a good number of Witnesses were anti-vaccines, as a considerable number of the population was, but the organization didn't promote those views.

 

People who defend that idea often point to some Golden Age articles which use very caustic, bordering on fanatical, language against vaccines. And it's true that those articles appeared on the magazine. But it must be understood that The Golden Age was a magazine of contributions: It was made up of letters from reader, not articles written by the Slave. Anyone could send a letter and have it published. So in the same issue you found that staunch letter against vaccines, you could find a few pages later another letter praising the goods of vaccinations. For some reason, people who try to make us appear as fanatics never point to those articles, only the antivaxx ones.

 

During World War II many young Witnesses in America went to jail due to their neutrality. In one of those prisons there was a conflict because vaccination was compulsory but some Witnesses were refusing it (interestingly only one such case is mentioned although there were brothers in many prisons). The branch sent brother Alexander Macmillan to speak with them. He relates in his book "Faith on the March", pages 188-189:

 

Quote

For about half an hour the men talked about the evils of vaccination, and so on. After all had had their say, I told them, "We're wasting time talking about the evils of vaccination because much could be said both ways. The point for us to consider is what are we going to do about being vaccinated. They have you all where they could vaccinate an elephant, and they will vaccinate you all." Up spoke the leader of the resistance and said: "What would you do if you were in prison and were called up for vaccination? " "I was in prison," I reminded them, "and I bared my arm and received the shot. Furthermore, all of us who visit our foreign branches are vaccinated or we stay at home. Now vaccination is not anything like blood transfusion. No blood is used in the vaccine. It is a serum. So you would not be violating those Scriptures which forbid taking blood into your system.

 

Brother Macmillan told them to stop being difficult and take the vaccine. This was in the early 40s. But notice he mentioned he had been in prison and had taken the vaccine. When was that? In 1918, when Rutherford, Macmillan and other six Watchtower directors were sent to prison. In such an early date, they "bared their arm and received the shot". That convinces me that Jehovah's Witnesses as an organization were never against vaccinations. Some, maybe many, Witnesses were, but it was a personal opinion, not something taught in our magazines.

 

Edited June 17, 2021 by carlos

[Tortuga]

4 hours ago, Naturale said:

Many of us have chosen not to have vaccinations and there are various different personal reasons why individuals make that decision.  It is a personal choice that each person has the freedom to make.  

I appreciate how the Branch recognizes that right and shows appropriate concern for those that are not vaccinated. The Branch reminds the non-vaccinated brothers and sisters that they are more susceptible to the virus and need to be more cautious. The Branch also ensures that the organization isn't doing anything to put them in danger. The non-vaccinated are not being ostracized, they are being protected.

 

Since this thread started out about federal laws not prohibiting employers from requiring their employees to be vaccinated, the perception of whether the non-vaccinated are being ostracized or protected will cause a lot of controversy.

Edited June 17, 2021 by Tortuga

[rocket]

5 hours ago, On the huh said:

I have had customers who have asked whether we are vaccinated or not before agreeing to do a job inside their home.  At the moment I cannot say yes because of having only one dose.  All we can do is reassure them that we regularly test, wear masks and keep our distance.  But we have had ones who say no we can't do it.

Of course, I could say it works the other way round.  I don't want to catch it from a customer.  We ask if anybody has had symptoms recently.  That doesn't always prove anything.   One customer informed me that they had been fully vaccinated and it was alright if I wanted to remove my mask.  I declined and kept wearing it to be safe.

We have the same issues here. One of my nephews has a carpet cleaning business. He and his son got the jab asap.  The 16 yr old son qualified several months before his age group because of the type of work they do.  It is all part of showing "good judgment and act in a way that demonstrates your respect for life." Update #4 The rest of the family had to wait several months but all are fully vaccinated now.

[rocket]

http://onlytruegod.org/jwstrs/MCB-vac.htm

 

@Nancy M"read the “Golden Age” where the brothers at that time were strongly against vaccinations. "  No the brothers were not against vaccinations.

 

Quote

This claim originated in an article that appeared in the February 4, 1931 issue of their magazine The Golden Age, in which scriptural reasons were used indicating the rejection of vaccines. While the article certainly exists, the critics usually do not mention the whole truth of the matter. The article was not an editorial article, that is to say, the publisher of the magazine did not write it, instead it was a contribution of a certain Chat A. Pattillo of Virginia (EE.UU.). The publisher did not specify if he agreed or not with the opinion of Mr. Patillo, and it is a significant fact that the article was presented like a mere contribution of someone foreign to the magazine. The matter was not presented like a prohibition, but as an opinion that could help make a personal decision.

Not less significant it is the fact that, apparently, The Watchtower never mentioned the subject. The Watchtower was until 1940 the only internal publication for Jehovah's Witnesses, where they treated Biblical matters of greater importance for the Witnesses, while the magazine The Golden Age was a publication for the public that touched more on general matters, in a way similar to the modern magazine and successor Awake!. No critic has been capable of showing any mention against vaccines neither in The Watchtower nor in any other publication aside from The Golden Age. No indication exists that the use of vaccines was considered as serious as to deserve any type of disciplinary measures—certainly not disfellowshipping. Really, the position on the matter was very different from the present position regarding blood.

 

Edited June 17, 2021 by rocket

[Tortuga]

18 hours ago, AH173 said:

I guess I should update my profile. Thanks 

Check the announcement on BA. You don't need to update your profile, just confirm your status if you get called 

[AH173]

23 hours ago, AH173 said:

I guess I should update my profile. Thanks 

 

5 hours ago, Tortuga said:

Check the announcement on BA. You don't need to update your profile, just confirm your status if you get called 

Thanks for the information. It's there in the June 10, 2021 notice.

[Naturale]

8 hours ago, Tortuga said:

I appreciate how the Branch recognizes that right and shows appropriate concern for those that are not vaccinated. The Branch reminds the non-vaccinated brothers and sisters that they are more susceptible to the virus and need to be more cautious. The Branch also ensures that the organization isn't doing anything to put them in danger. The non-vaccinated are not being ostracized, they are being protected.

Yes there will be those who need protecting but those of us who are healthy and have had Covid don't need protecting as a test proves we have natural antibodies.

[Brother_Bliss]

On 6/16/2021 at 5:51 AM, lovjahupepl said:

Based on the CDC's own website vaccinated people can still get the virus.  So suppose a business has all vaccinated people they still can have an infection.  My concern would not be the percentages it would be that it's  a possibility.

Then you're looking at this in the wrong way. The possibility is not the concern, the probability IS the real heart of the matter. Yes, it's the percentage that is of utmost concern. 

 

On 6/16/2021 at 5:51 AM, lovjahupepl said:

From my observation many are thinking "it will help me not get the virus or i'm immuned\".  Having the shot is not a guarantee you are safe.

 

Nothing in life is guaranteed, BUT...

 

A 2 week old CDC report shows that as of April 30th there were 101 million citizens vaccinated. Out of that 101 million people, there were reported 10,262 "breakthrough cases" of Covid infections. Of those 10,262 breakthrough cases, only 995 ended up in the hospital and only 160 died. 

 

That means you have:

• only a .01% chance of being infected with Covid after vaccination.
• only a .0099% chance of ending up in the hospital.
• only a .00016% change of dying.

So when I said earlier, "studies are pointing to being vaccinated with the awesome mRNA vaccines as meaning your almost bulletproof to infection", there's the data to back up my statement. These vaccines are not only SAFE, but they are performing better in the real world than they did in testing before being made available to the public.

 

Now to be a good forum member and keep my comments on topic, it's really simple...

 

My clients are often elderly or have health conditions that put them in the high risk group. They WANT the workers who enter their home to wear masks and to be vaccinated. Both of these are proven methods that can increase the protection of others. If everyone in the company is vaccinated, the odds of someone getting infection is slim. The odds of the entire vaccinated crew getting infected is almost impossible. Likewise, the likelihood of infecting a client goes down as well. Love of neighbor is what moves us to require vaccinations to protect us and our clients. It would be awful if a client was hospitalized or died. So, let's do everything we can to reduce the odds of something like that happening.

 

The economy is booming over here. Everyone is hiring. There's a shortage of workers and plenty of opportunities out there that don't require a vaccine. I'm not doing a disservice to anyone.

 

 

 

[Brother_Bliss]

29 minutes ago, Naturale said:

Yes there will be those who need protecting but those of us who are healthy and have had Covid don't need protecting as a test proves we have natural antibodies.

^ This is a very good point. Having had Covid, you should have a measure of protection also. Getting a vaccine or fighting Covid off naturally should have similar immune responses and protections towards future infection, at least for a time.

[Dhanyel]

I was contaminated with Coronavirus, I recovered, it's been a few months, and I've already taken the first dose of the vaccine, I felt death with this virus. I am satisfied with the vaccine! According to studies, the vaccine is not to develop the critical condition of the disease, such as hospitalizations and deaths!

[Naturale]

17 hours ago, Dismal_Bliss said:

^ This is a very good point. Having had Covid, you should have a measure of protection also. Getting a vaccine or fighting Covid off naturally should have similar immune responses and protections towards future infection, at least for a time.

Yes here where I live proof of antibodies is quite acceptable for travel or whatever.   This is a good article:-

 

Quit Ignoring Natural COVID Immunity — Antibody testing and proof of prior infection can allow more people to return to normal by Jeffrey Klausner, MD, MPH, and Noah Kojima, MD May 28, 2021

Epidemiologists estimate over 160 million people worldwide have recovered from COVID-19. Those who have recovered have an astonishingly low frequency of repeat infection, disease, or death. That immunity from prior infection protects many people now where vaccines are not yet available.

 

...   Like many aspects of the Federal Government's response to COVID-19, the FDA's comment lags behind the science. Given that 90% to 99% of people who recover from COVID-19 develop detectable neutralizing antibodies, doctors can use the correct test to inform people of their risk. We can counsel patients that those who have recovered from COVID-19 have a strong protective immunity, protecting them from repeat infection, disease, hospitalization, and death. In fact, that protection is similar to or better than vaccine-induced immunity. Putting that together, people who have recovered from prior infection or those with detectable antibodies should be considered protected, similarly to someone who is vaccinated.

Moving forward, policymakers should include natural immunity as determined by an accurate and reliable antibody test or the documentation of prior infection (previous positive PCR or antigen test), as evidence of immunity equal to that of vaccination. That immunity should be given the same societal status as vaccine-inducted immunity. Such a policy will greatly reduce anxiety and increase access to travel, events, family visits, and more. The updated policy will allow those who have recovered to celebrate their recovery by informing them of their immunity, allowing them to safely discard their masks, show their faces, and join the legions of those vaccinated.

 

https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:zXvnXSvpw-gJ:https://www.medpagetoday.com/infectiousdisease/covid19/92836+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=im

 

Edited June 18, 2021 by Tortuga

[M.J.]

On 6/16/2021 at 9:46 PM, Polka Dot said:

Sadly, it does seem like Satan is using this to drive a wedge between Jehovah's people.

I only seen this online, where people are obsessed with discussing hypothetical scenarios regarding Covid vaccines. In real life, I have very pleasant conversations with my brothers and sisters, and no one is fixated on discussing the vaccine or anything about it. It comes up from time to time, but only in passing. Satan can only drive a wedge between those who allow it.

[New World Explorer]

On 6/14/2021 at 12:10 PM, Tortuga said:

Here?

No...! it's enough to disinfect the keyboard when typing a response LOL 

[Ms. Piffle]

9 hours ago, M.J. said:

I only seen this online, where people are obsessed with discussing hypothetical scenarios regarding Covid vaccines. In real life, I have very pleasant conversations with my brothers and sisters, and no one is fixated on discussing the vaccine or anything about it. It comes up from time to time, but only in passing. Satan can only drive a wedge between those who allow it.

Yes, I was referring to online. I agree that in person, the brothers and sisters have been very respectful towards one another. I've not heard anyone in my congregation pushing an opinion either way. They are faithfully following the direction to respect one another's personal choice.  

[Fallbrookian]

On 6/17/2021 at 8:14 AM, rocket said:

http://onlytruegod.org/jwstrs/MCB-vac.htm

 

@Nancy M"read the “Golden Age” where the brothers at that time were strongly against vaccinations. "  No the brothers were not against vaccinations.

 

 

It was wrong for me to say the brothers were strongly against vaccinations.  I apologize.  What I should have said is the editor (Brother Clayton J. Woodworth) allowed articles to be published that were against vaccination.  These articles are from regular people & doctors commenting on their experiences such as  "Antitoxins & Vaccines" by Mrs. W.R. Burzacott July 20, 1921 pg 634, or by A.M. Wilton MD "The vaccination Infamy" October 12, 1921 pg. 17.  They also allowed other articles suggesting how vaccines work April 27, 1921, by G. del Pino, Glasgow.

 

And yes Brother Macmillan went to visit our boys in prison and talked to them about the vaccination issue because they had been put in solitary confinement due to refusing to be vaccinated thinking it was scripturally wrong.  Besides telling them he had been vaccinated in prison, he also told them, "We're wasting time talking about the evils of vaccination because much could be said both ways...." Brother Macmillan wanted to get those boys out of solitary confinement, because they were there unnecessarily.  Remember from history there was great controversy over vaccination and prior to World War II the government forced people to get a jab or they would be put in jail and/or fined.  The brothers never suggested vaccination was wrong, but allowed articles with information pro and con. After World War II  the "Nuremberg Code" came into effect. The principles established by this code for medical practice now have been extended into general codes of medical ethics.

 

 

[New World Explorer]

Australia plans to shelve AstraZeneca Covid vaccine by October

Controversial vaccine to be given only by request later this year when Moderna and Pfizer will dominate

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/jun/23/australia-plans-to-shelve-astrazeneca-covid-vaccine-by-october

[blue-jay]

Is there a list in any of the covid topics, discussing the differences between the different vaccines?

For example wasn't there one that's not recommended for the elderly? And the different side effects; which one was it that has caused heart inflammation in some young men? Things like that...

Edited June 25, 2021 by blue-jay

[carlos]

1 hour ago, blue-jay said:

Is there a list in any of the covid topics, discussing the differences between the different vaccines?

I don't remember any such list. That would be useful.

 

Here in Spain they no longer give AstraZeneca to people younger than 65. It seems in some young women with a strong immune system that vaccine can cause too strong a reaction that produces blood clots. It's quite rare but there have been a number of cases, mostly women younger than 40. There have been no known reactions among people older than 65.

[blue-jay]

1 hour ago, carlos said:

I don't remember any such list. That would be useful.

 

Here in Spain they no longer give AstraZeneca to people younger than 65. It seems in some young women with a strong immune system that vaccine can cause too strong a reaction that produces blood clots. It's quite rare but there have been a number of cases, mostly women younger than 40. There have been no known reactions among people older than 65.

That's interesting. Thank you. That's exactly the kind of information I'm looking for.