September 2015 broadcast

[Tortuga]

I am genuinely trying to understand how others think. I get that we are not working to a date or anything like that, but that doesn't mean we cant be excited about what those feeding us are telling us, does it? To me it is very clear it is what they say it is. "Soon, very soon..."

 

This has been discussed several times recently and my opinion is there is a difference between being alert, being excited and sheer panic. It seems that not everyone has a clear understanding of the difference and some will judge others because they are alert and not panicking. I think it is good to be alert, be excited but don't panic. The FDS doesn't know when the GT will start, we are all in the same boat and they are looking just as intently as we are at world events. It's clear that it is soon, and the FDS are doing a great job of keeping us awake to that fact.

 

I really like the first part of the scripture (Matthew 24:32) 32 “Now learn this illustration from the fig tree: Just as soon as its young branch grows tender and sprouts its leaves, you know that summer is near. 

 

My opinion is the FDS are saying "Look, did you notice that leaf and that one and that one?"

Edited September 9, 2015 by Tortuga

[Hope]

Well, I'm excited.  

 

I also like the focus on music in this particular broadcast.  The video was great!  And the single sister was nice.  Still hold out little hope for myself, but I'm glad she's have a good time..

[trottigy]

And so we have:
 

Plan ahead as if Armageddon will not come in your lifetime, but lead your life as if it will come tomorrow (w 2004 Dec. 1 page 29)

 
This is as she says in that article:
 

- precious advice that I have always tried to apply. Balancing patience and eager expectation is not always easy, especially since the ravages of old age now keep me confined at home. Yet, I have never doubted Jehovah’s promise to all his faithful servants: “Trust in Jehovah with all your heart . . . In all your ways take notice of him, and he himself will make your paths straight.” -Proverbs 3:5, 6.

http://m.wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2004885#h=34

Edited September 9, 2015 by trottigy

[Krusso]

Taking advantage of brother Richard' well made distinctions, I am alert now, I will be excited when I see for exemple the Italian government shutting down the Vatican bank and ending its independent status and will never be panicked because when all that occurs our freedom will be near.

[Dages]

There is no such thing as a "new light", it's a better light, not new. The Bible does get "new", our understanding gets better, that's all.

[Shawnster]

There is no such thing as a "new light", it's a better light, not new. The Bible does get "new", our understanding gets better, that's all.

 

While you are correct, even the Slave has used the term.

 

*** w95 5/15 p. 11 par. 6 Flashes of Light in Apostolic Times ***

6 Also on the day of Pentecost, the disciples first understood that the words of Psalm 16:10 applied to the resurrected Jesus Christ. The psalmist had said: “You [Jehovah God] will not leave my soul in Sheol. You will not allow your loyal one to see the pit.” The disciples realized that those words could not have applied to King David, for his tomb was with them until that day. No wonder about 3,000 of those who heard this new light explained were so convinced that they got baptized that very day!—Acts 2:14-41.

 

*** w88 3/1 p. 12 My Life in Jehovah’s Spirit-Directed Organization ***

Thrilling New Light

Early in 1935, some six months after my release from prison and return to Bethel, I recall a number of discussions at the Bethel table regarding the identity of the “great multitude.” (Revelation 7:9, 13, King James Version) Some expressed support for the view that this was a secondary heavenly class, even as the first president of the Watch Tower Society, Brother Russell, had taught. Others, however, argued that the “great multitude” consisted of those with an earthly hope. During these discussions, Brother Rutherford did not commit himself.

 

All of us at Bethel were excited as we traveled by special train to Washington, D.C., for the convention to be held from May 30 to June 3, 1935. On the second day of the convention, Brother Rutherford presented the thrilling news that the “great multitude” are indeed an earthly class. At the climactic moment, he asked: “Will all those who have the hope of living forever on the earth please stand?” About half of the 20,000 in attendance stood. Then Brother Rutherford proclaimed: “Behold! The great multitude!” There was a brief hush. Then we all shared in a gladsome cry, and the cheering was loud and long. The next day 840 were baptized, mostly of the earthly class.

 

This 1935 new light on the “great multitude” led to steps of reorganization in 1936 to prepare for the expected influx of members of this class. For example, until then, there was just one large English congregation in all of New York City, but now new congregations were formed with us younger anointed ones being assigned as overseers. Today, there are 336 congregations in New York City!

 

Of course, even the Slave has had to adjust their terminology over the years.  We used to say "vindicate Jehovah's name."  

 

You are, however, correct.

[feather]

Can I ask something? What goes through your mind when you hear for instance the first sentence of this months broadcast talk? He said,

 

"This month, I'd like to discuss how, our understanding of this generation that Jesus spoke about at Mathew 24:34 has a bearing on the nearness of the time of of the end of this system of things."

 

So it wasnt being discussed because some people don't understand the generation thing but rather its bearing on how near we are to the end. Unlike a talk at a convention etc this broadcast will have been checked/edited before release, so we can be confident that this is exactly what they want us to understand.

 

Nearness is mentioned a few times throughout the broadcast as well. Bro Sanderson mentioned it in his talk at our convention in Glasgow. (I have them recorded.) The Governing Body as a whole are saying it directly and/or in print.

 

I am genuinely trying to understand how others think. I get that we are not working to a date or anything like that, but that doesn't mean we cant be excited about what those feeding us are telling us, does it? To me it is very clear it is what they say it is. "Soon, very soon..."

 

Not trying to belittle any thoughts by the way. I am asking as I have come across in my own congregation, almost a reluctance to actually discuss what we are being told. A repeating of don't know the day or the hour etc. Seriously that is what I hear all the time. Not sure why because I don't hear either a day or an hour in the phrase soon, very soon. lol

 brother Mike you make some good observations.

  i too found br Splane's introduction- in particular his 1st sentence you quoted above- interesting.

 

   in answer to your question regarding the reluctance to discuss the nearness of the end,

     well in spending time with several older ones- baptized in 1940s- what i hear from them is

       many of these dear friends grew up being told:          

      "you will never have to worry about growing old in this system"...

        "there isn't time for you to have your own family/ raise children"...

 

  These loyal ones, now in their 80s, have spent much of their years looking for the end.

   Faithful integrity keepers they are, their focus now is on keeping in step

   with the organization's teaching, training, and growth-  doing the work at hand.

    and while they thrill at the speed and diversity our organization is taking...

     - from placards and sound car witnessing to website and videos on a tiny phone-

      perhaps Pr 13:12 plays a part for them:

        "Expectation *ftn: hope* postponed makes the heart sick,

           but a desire realized is a tree of life."

   

    i appreciate your sentiments

    "that doesn't mean we cant be excited about what those feeding us are telling us, does it?"

  

       absolutely not. be excited dear brother. it's contagious.

         

[Sheep]

. . . However the current understanding of what constitutes generation is what it is : a current understanding. It is not a fact. It will become a fact when and if the Armageddon comes within the now fixed time frame established by the current understanding. If not, it will be exactly like it has been , this understanding will be old and a new one will became current. . .

 

I thought something similar about the explanation of the "generation." For years we thought, as was taught when I came into the truth, that there would be some who were alive in 1914 who would still be alive when the end came. Personally, I had doubts about that explanation, but had nothing better to offer. Then in 1995, it was explained that "'this generation' apparently refers to the peoples of earth who see the sign of Christ's presence but fail to mend their ways." (w95 11/1 page 19, ¶12) Several, including myself, had no clue what that really meant, but had nothing better to offer. Then in 2008 came our "current understanding." To be honest, this one doesn't sit too well with me either (I don't see the word "overlap" in the Bible), but I have nothing better to offer.

 

Regarding the explanation from the 1995 Watchtower, quoted above, it said "'this generation' apparently refers to the peoples..." It didn't sound like they were certain at the time. When we read the articles containing the current explanation, they contains phrases like "We understand that in mentioning “this generation,” Jesus was referring to two groups of anointed Christians." (w14 1/15 page 31, ¶15) Doesn't that sound to you like we're still not certain?

Russo's post quoted above suggests there may be a clarified explanation in the future, as I'm sure this one does too. However, as was already mentioned in a previous post somewhere, it doesn't change much anyway. We still have "the truth," which is constantly being refined and clarified. When we finally have a perfect understanding of "this generation," we won't know it until the Great Tribulation breaks out. Nevertheless, what we have now is enough to convince us that the end is indeed "soon, very soon." (w15 7/15, page 15, ¶3)

[takeadeepbreath]

This is interesting because if your mother had discussed this with people in the 80's and into the 90's then I suspect she would have faced negative comments about her views along the lines of not having faith that Jehovah can make things happen and that those people who saw 1914 were now very old and so the time must be very reduced etc.  

 

Your point about the time not really mattering in the grand scheme of things is also well made.  I have long thought this however over time I have wondered about why it is in the Bible if not meant as being important.  The F&DS still consider it very important since they have constantly reiterated that the cross over of two sets of anointed persons is all it can be,  It is not one cross over followed by another.  Bro. Splane made that absolutely clear again in the broadcast.  So whilst 200, 300 or another 400 years is not a big thing compared to eternity, it is not allowed for by the F&DS.  Something in the understanding the F&DS have on this matter rules out the possibility of there being multiple overlaps.  The use of the term "generation" by Jesus was critical to the Christians back then and their survival.  The F&DS clearly still consider it highly relevant to today and whilst not putting a fixed time on things are being crystal clear that there is one overlap and the second group of anointed ones are advancing in age themselves. 

 

It is significant that they have not left the door open for possible multiple overlaps if this system goes on longer than they expect. It seems that their current understanding is fenced in by fixed parameters as Br. Splane  clearly explained. Our current understanding places a  time limit for how long this system can go on as they have placed limits on who can be in the second group and have ruled out any possible future 3rd group. The fact that they haven't left themselves a lot of room for maneuver within this explanation shows how confident they are that this is the correct understanding. In my opinion It is hard to see how they could make future changes without using a completely different approach.

[ExquisitePeace]

It is significant that they have not left the door open for possible multiple overlaps if this system goes on longer than they expect. It seems that their current understanding is fenced in by fixed parameters as Br. Splane clearly explained. Our current understanding places a time limit for how long this system can go on as they have placed limits on who can be in the second group and have ruled out any possible future 3rd group. The fact that they haven't left themselves a lot of room for maneuver within this explanation shows how confident they are that this is the correct understanding. In my opinion It is hard to see how they could make future changes without using a completely different approach.

On point brother. We are indeed near. Generations have endings. Which is what they are saying. This generation is getting old. BEFORE they die the GT will come. If they are getting old, then some are already passing away. The GT is really close ahead. The GT could break out any time from 2015 to 2020, even 2025-2030. Beyond could be agains't bible prophecy.

But given all world events, prophecies, study material, etc. It's probably coming on the sooner end. 2017 sounds cool, even 2027.

Be strong & courageous, it might just end sooner than we think.

I can feel it in my bones. Especially these last few years. Like an anticipation waiting for release of something epic.

[Mykyl]

This has been discussed several times recently and my opinion is there is a difference between being alert, being excited and sheer panic. It seems that not everyone has a clear understanding of the difference and some will judge others because they are alert and not panicking. I think it is good to be alert, be excited but don't panic. The FDS doesn't know when the GT will start, we are all in the same boat and they are looking just as intently as we are at world events. It's clear that it is soon, and the FDS are doing a great job of keeping us awake to that fact.

 

I really like the first part of the scripture (Matthew 24:32) 32 “Now learn this illustration from the fig tree: Just as soon as its young branch grows tender and sprouts its leaves, you know that summer is near. 

 

My opinion is the FDS are saying "Look, did you notice that leaf and that one and that one?"

I'm not judging anybody and I know the difference between alert, excited and sheer panic. I mentioned that I wanted to understand the thought process of others so I could understand it better. I only ever talk about it here now. It can feel like somehow I'm an oddball for wanting to talk about it at the hall, like somehow I am racing ahead of the FDS when all I am doing is talking about what they are saying. Not my words but theirs.

Maybe I am an oddball. 4 years after returning to the truth after many years I still feel excited about the fact that Jehovah let me come back. I am terrified of losing that excitement because I know the fleshly man I am and I hate him. So when it seems to be that others look at me as being weird when I talk about these things I sometimes question my sanity, that something is wrong with me especially if others think when I ask a question that somehow I am judging others. That why often you will see me try to qualify a comment to try and make it clear what I am trying to say.

No idea how else to explain why I asked the question.

[Mykyl]

brother Mike you make some good observations.

i too found br Splane's introduction- in particular his 1st sentence you quoted above- interesting.

in answer to your question regarding the reluctance to discuss the nearness of the end,

well in spending time with several older ones- baptized in 1940s- what i hear from them is

many of these dear friends grew up being told:

"you will never have to worry about growing old in this system"...

"there isn't time for you to have your own family/ raise children"...

These loyal ones, now in their 80s, have spent much of their years looking for the end.

Faithful integrity keepers they are, their focus now is on keeping in step

with the organization's teaching, training, and growth- doing the work at hand.

and while they thrill at the speed and diversity our organization is taking...

- from placards and sound car witnessing to website and videos on a tiny phone-

perhaps Pr 13:12 plays a part for them:

"Expectation *ftn: hope* postponed makes the heart sick,

but a desire realized is a tree of life."

i appreciate your sentiments

"that doesn't mean we cant be excited about what those feeding us are telling us, does it?"

absolutely not. be excited dear brother. it's contagious.

thank you. That whole expectation postponed part is one of the things I focus on. The constant reminder of it being very soon etc and that scripture is what gives me more confidence in what we are being told.
Edited September 10, 2015 by Mykyl

[BibleSteve]

For me the emphasis at the moment should be on the phrase "by no means will this generation pass away........  "by no means" I understand this to mean that there will be many of that group left at that time and not just a few which would look like it was going to pass without happening. Its close brothers extremely close 

At a time that you do not think it to be it will be here....keep on the watch.

[jayrtom]

Several times the slave as said that its better for a watchman to warn of the coming of an enemy on the smallest shadow on the horizon and afterall its nothing... Than not warn about it and the enemy comes and destroys everything

I totally agree with that... I rather think it's around the corner (less than 5 years) and later be adjusted than to think it won't be in the next 20 years

Enviado do meu 6045K através de Tapatalk

[Robroy]

Many good points have been made regarding this prophecy which are worthy of being reiterated and perhaps help us to see why the FDS are talking about the urgency of the times.

Prophecy. While it's true that in years past, there were unfulfilled prophecies that had to be fulfilled before the outbreak of the GT, now there is primarily one pre GT prophecy that we are anxiously waiting for: Peace and Security. The remainder of the prophecies follow the start of the GT.

Generation. There are only a limited number of definitions of the word generation that can be used. These have been listed before, so I'm not going to put them here again. What also must be taken into consideration is how that word was understood at the time it was spoken about. But basically, it was understood the same way then as it is now. It can refer to a time frame of approximately 25 years, a literal lifetime or a group of people who were witness to an event or time frame. All definitions for this word have now been exhausted except for one, which leads us to the current understanding. That it couldn't be a continual group one after another indefinitely is understood the same way as if to say we are all of Adams generation because there has been a continual overlapping generation since his time. Yeah, technically it could be so, but this is a big stretch of the definition of the word generation. A better word would have to be used if this was the way this prophecy was to be understood.

The Generation being talked about are those of the anointed who were witnesses to the events of 1914 and their anointed companions. This fits well with the definition of the word generation.

By no means. This wording is a very well understood expression that no doubt has its version in other languages. It means without uncertainty or without doubt. Used in this prophecy, it would mean that there would be undoubtedly a number of this group at Armageddon who would witness these events. To use extremes, like Brother Sanderson who was no doubt Annointed at a very young age and therefore part of this Generation would not be reasonable. There were no doubt very few 18 year old Annointed in 1992. If this was the case that Jesus meant this, then He would have stated that this Generation will not pass away, rather than his word choice of saying, "by no means".

So where does this leave us? If this Scripture was not overly important to any but the 1st Century Christians, it would probably not have been recorded in the Scriptures, would it? After all the Scriptures say that if everything Jesus spoke about was recorded, it would take volumes. If this time of the end was to continue on for decades more, then we would have to redefine the word Generation to apply only to this particular Scripture.

Of course, these are only personal thoughts. I don't serve with a date in mind and if this system continued on for a number of years, then I would be just as excited, because I could also see the fulfillment of larger Spiritual goals that I have for my family. If not, then I would be happy with that outcome as well.

[Tortuga]

Prophecy. While it's true that in years past, there were unfulfilled prophecies that had to be fulfilled before the outbreak of the GT, now there is primarily one pre GT prophecy that we are anxiously waiting for: Peace and Security. The remainder of the prophecies follow the start of the GT.

 

Agreed. Once we see that, everything will fall in place and when it is all over we will understand what happened.

[Tortuga]

 I mentioned that I wanted to understand the thought process of others so I could understand it better. I only ever talk about it here now. It can feel like somehow I'm an oddball for wanting to talk about it at the hall, like somehow I am racing ahead of the FDS when all I am doing is talking about what they are saying. Not my words but theirs.

 

I'm glad you asked for opinions, I'm not usually shy about offering my opinion especially when someone asks. 

 

I think a lot of us are like you are, it helps to solidify things in our minds when we talk to other people and we are more than happy to talk!

[Tortuga]

Just for fun, I was thinking of ways to illustrate the definition of 'generation' that is being used.

 

I have an apple tree, one year it produced several crops of apples. Some of the first apples ripened and fell from the tree while some of the contemporary apples were still growing, yet it was still one crop. Later it produced more apples and I called it a second crop even though there were a few apples from the first crop still on the tree.

 

Ok...so it's not a good illustration...

 

Do you have a favorite illustration to explain the application of 'generation'?

Edited September 10, 2015 by Tortuga

[Tortuga]

I'm not judging anybody and I know the difference between alert, excited and sheer panic.

 

Oh..by the way..I wasn't saying that you were judging anyone and I hope you didn't take it that way.  

 

I added that to my comment to just round out my opinion. I have observed that people have different levels of alertness and some can be alert with their eyes closed while others are running around in circles, they don't always see eye to eye so we have to anticipate a variety of opinions.

[dozerman5676]

Robroy, on 10 Sept 2015 - 09:40 AM, said:

Prophecy. While it's true that in years past, there were unfulfilled prophecies that had to be fulfilled before the outbreak of the GT, now there is primarily one pre GT prophecy that we are anxiously waiting for: Peace and Security. The remainder of the prophecies follow the start of the GT.

 

And the cry of Peace & Security could be days away.  Not based on anything in particular that is happening today, but based on Jehovah pulling the strings.  Who saw the Berlin wall coming down in 1989 with the fall of the Soviet Block soon after?  I knew somebody that was there on a tour when it happened.  She said somebody jumped on the wall and they all froze..... waiting for the guards to shoot them down.  Nothing..... then someone else jumped up and it was "game over".  Jehovah could have something happen tomorrow that would change the world scene.  To me, waiting for that to happen is more fun to watch than trying to figure out who is in group one, two or three.  I appreciate the clarification but as someone mentioned, that will be clearer after the start of the GT.

[Krusso]

I think that the last time the term generation was defined (before the most recent and current understanding) we were exactly where we are now, waiting for the "Peace and Security" warning and the beginning of the GT. Please correct me if I am wrong. Was there any prophecy that was fulfilled after the 1990's? Thanks in advance for the answer.

[Tortuga]

I think that the last time the term generation was defined (before the most recent and current understanding) we were exactly where we are now, waiting for the "Peace and Security" warning and the beginning of the GT. Please correct me if I am wrong. Was there any prophecy that was fulfilled after the 1990's? Thanks in advance for the answer.

 

There are some beliefs that have been clarified in the last 25 years but I can't think of any prophecies that have been fulfilled. I'm hoping others will think of something...

 

My personal view is the FDS is still pointing to the figurative fig tree and says 'there's a leaf, there's a leaf and oh, look, there is another one"

They are just reminding us that the figurative fig tree is blooming and summer is near.

[jwhess]

Sometimes it is good to remind ourselves that "generation" is an English word.  The Bible was not written in English.  One older parishioner in an evangelical church was quoted as saying, "If the King James Bible was good enough for Saint Peter, it was good enough for her."  We know better.  The Greek word was Genea'.

 

 

*** w95 11/1 p. 30 Questions From Readers ***

 

But in the Greek text of Jesus’ words found at Matthew 24:34, we find the word ge·ne·aʹ. It is widely recognized that Jesus was referring, not to any “race” of people, but to the people living at a certain period of time.

 

*** w99 5/1 p. 11 “These Things Must Take Place” ***

 

British scholar G. R. Beasley-Murray observes: “The phrase ‘this generation’ should cause no difficulty for interpreters. While admittedly genea in earlier Greek meant birth, progeny, and so race, . . . in the [Greek Septuagint] it most frequently translated the Hebrew term dôr, meaning age, age of humankind, or generation in the sense of contemporaries. . . . In sayings attributed to Jesus the term appears to have a twofold connotation: on the one hand it always signifies his contemporaries, and on the other hand it always carries an implicit criticism.”

 

*** w10 4/15 pp. 10-11 par. 14 Holy Spirit’s Role in the Outworking of Jehovah’s Purpose ***

 

¹⁴ What does this explanation mean to us? Although we cannot measure the exact length of “this generation,” we do well to keep in mind several things about the word “generation”: It usually refers to people of varying ages whose lives overlap during a particular time period; it is not excessively long; and it has an end. (Ex. 1:6) How, then, are we to understand Jesus’ words about “this generation”? He evidently meant that the lives of the anointed who were on hand when the sign began to become evident in 1914 would overlap with the lives of other anointed ones who would see the start of the great tribulation. That generation had a beginning, and it surely will have an end. The fulfillment of the various features of the sign clearly indicate that the tribulation must be near. By maintaining your sense of urgency and keeping on the watch, you show that you are keeping up with advancing light and following the leadings of holy spirit.—Mark 13:37.

Edited September 11, 2015 by jwhess

[TRUTH04]

Does anyone know when Gilead graduation video will appear?

[On the huh]

Does anyone know when Gilead graduation video will appear?

 

Not for certain.  Its on the Saturday 12th, so give them a week or two to prepare it, I would say it will appear either the week of the 21st or 28th.