Jump to content
JWTalk - Jehovah's Witnesses Online Community

Pope Francis: Lord’s Prayer to CHANGE as it implies God ‘induces temptation’


We lock topics that are over 365 days old, and the last reply made in this topic was 1896 days ago. If you want to discuss this subject, we prefer that you start a new topic.

Recommended Posts

THE most famous Christian prayer, the Lord’s Prayer could be changed by the Italian Episcopal Conference (CEI) after the Pope pointed out its current translation is wrong as God can’t lead humans “into temptation”.

 

By ALICE SCARSI

 

PUBLISHED: 13:45, Mon, Dec 10, 2018UPDATED: 16:42, Mon, Dec 10, 2018

 

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1056839/pope-francis-lords-prayer-bible-translation-christianity-prayer-pater-noster

 

 

 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Can surely tell they ignore God’s Word:

 

Deuteronomy 4:2 ”You must not add to the word that I am commanding you, neither must you take away from it, so as to keep the commandments of Jehovah your God that I am commanding you.”

 

Messing with something they have no business messing with. 👿

Isaiah 33:24  "And no resident will say: “I am sick.”

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The Swedish Edition of the nwt reads at Mt 6:13: “Help us not to give in to temptations.” The Danish and Norwegian are similar. The recently released Finnish Edition has a similar reading as well.

🎵“I have listened to Jesus in these troublesome days,

He lights up my path.

As I hear and obey.”

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I like the New world's translation better. Leading could be termed as someone leading someone else into a temptation by deceit whereas our says do not bring us into temptation which is kind of like Jehovah knowing we're going to face a test and forewarning us by bringing us through it. ^_^

I live in a temporary reality- awaiting the day I wake up to life in the real world!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, Thesauron said:

The Swedish Edition of the nwt reads at Mt 6:13: “Help us not to give in to temptations.” The Danish and Norwegian are similar. The recently released Finnish Edition has a similar reading as well.

That is a really good translation.

I have too wondered about this verse in the past thinking why would God bring or lead his worshipers into temptation. The current English translation "do not bring us into" is not very different from "lead us not into". 

 

The Kyrgyz translation of the NWT reads like this: do not allow us into temptation. The Uighur translation is even better, in my view. It reads: do not let us give in to temptation. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The above article states: “It is a translation from the Latin Vulgate, a 4th-Century Latin translation of the Bible, which itself was translated from ancient Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic.

 

Why translate from Latin ‘which itself is a translation’ from Greek? Why not directly from Greek? My suggestion to Catholics: Use the NWT and enjoy. :) 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Maybe I'm reading this wrong but in this case I think they're right... The current translation they use is wrong and they want to correct it... It's true that God doesn't lead us into temptation...

The news doesn't say they want to change the bible but that they want to change the translation

Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 hours ago, Loopy said:

Can surely tell they ignore God’s Word:

 

Deuteronomy 4:2 ”You must not add to the word that I am commanding you, neither must you take away from it, so as to keep the commandments of Jehovah your God that I am commanding you.”

 

Messing with something they have no business messing with. 👿

Remember this : it’s about to come up again.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, jayrtom said:

Maybe I'm reading this wrong but in this case I think they're right... The current translation they use is wrong and they want to correct it... It's true that God doesn't lead us into temptation...

The news doesn't say they want to change the bible but that they want to change the translation

I think you're on the right track here. Excerpts from several Watchtower articles, WOL SEARCH Matt 6:13:

"So the Lord’s prayer continues: “And do not bring us into temptation.” (Matt. 6:13,NW; Luke 11:4) 

The Four Gospels, by C. C. Torrey, renders the petition, “And let us not yield to temptation,” whereas The Emphatic Diaglott renders it: “And abandon us not to Trial.”—Matt. 6:13."_w51 8/15 pp. 496-505

 

"Jesus was led into the wilderness by God’s spirit.  “To be tempted by the Devil.” Jehovah is holy and therefore never tempts anyone to do evil. Rather, it is the Devil who is “the Tempter.” (Matt. 4:3)"

"Because of the ongoing issue regarding God’s sovereignty, Jehovah allows the Tempter to use this world to tempt us. God is not bringing us into temptation."_ w15 6/15 28-29

We cannot incite if we are not in sight.___Heb.10:24,25

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 hours ago, Bjern said:

The Bishop of Rome thinks he is above God.

We tend to criticize everything the churches do, but that is not fair. While I don't disagree with your statement in general, in this particular case the pope is right. He's not adding or taking from the text, he's just promoting a better translation of it.

 

It's the same the NWT does when a literal rendering of the text lends itself to confusion. For example, a literal translation of Matthew 5:3 says "Happy are the poor in spirit". But that could be easily misunderstood as promoting people not to have initiative to do anything. So our translation captures the intended meaning rather than the literal words and says: "Happy are those conscious of their spiritual need." In fact, in many languages the NWT translators are doing exactly the same the pope is suggesting and translating Matthew 6:13 as "Do not let us give in to temptation." Surely the brothers do not think they are above God, they are trying to convey His words in the best possible way. :)

 

Anyway this translation is not new. When I was a kid at school several decades ago every school day began by reciting the Lord's Prayer and they already said "Do not let us fall into temptation".


Edited by carlos
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The NWT renders Luke 11:4 as “and do not bring us into temptation “.  While the Pope proposes to change the rendering to something like “ help us to resist temptation “.  

    While  well intended ( meaning the Pope appears to be being generally kind to God and placing the responsibility for temptation on humans ) the original Greek ( G inter linear translation) does not leave room for this thought. But when compared with 1 Corinthians 10:13 and James 1:13 , it would seem that Jehovah may very well lead us into a position to be tempted or tested but “ not beyond what we can endure”.  

   Think about how we grow and develop. Think also of Jesus our exemplar who was lead by the spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by Satan. Jehovah knew how that would affirm in His son the strength of Character that Jesus needed under later trials . So too, Jehovah’s leading us to be tempted at times may actual help us to develop properly. Gain confidence. 

    The true value of keeping the correct translation as in the NWT is the manifestation that we may ask of Jehovah to not put us to defer putting us to the test when we feel we are not ready . And He will listen. Taking our feelings and wishes into consideration. How wonderful is that!

     

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The NWT renders Luke 11:4 as “and do not bring us into temptation “.  While the Pope proposes to change the rendering to something like “ help us to resist temptation “.  
    While  well intended ( meaning the Pope appears to be being generally kind to God and placing the responsibility for temptation on humans ) the original Greek ( G inter linear translation) does not leave room for this thought. But when compared with 1 Corinthians 10:13 and James 1:13 , it would seem that Jehovah may very well lead us into a position to be tempted or tested but “ not beyond what we can endure”.  
   Think about how we grow and develop. Think also of Jesus our exemplar who was lead by the spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by Satan. Jehovah knew how that would affirm in His son the strength of Character that Jesus needed under later trials . So too, Jehovah’s leading us to be tempted at times may actual help us to develop properly. Gain confidence. 
    The true value of keeping the correct translation as in the NWT is the manifestation that we may ask of Jehovah to not put us to defer putting us to the test when we feel we are not ready . And He will listen. Taking our feelings and wishes into consideration. How wonderful is that!
     

The NWT Committee seems to disagree with you, as the recent, non-English editions of the NWT reads “Help us not to give in to temptation.” (Mt 6:13)

🎵“I have listened to Jesus in these troublesome days,

He lights up my path.

As I hear and obey.”

Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 minutes ago, Thesauron said:


The NWT Committee seems to disagree with you, as the recent, non-English editions of the NWT reads “Help us not to give in to temptation.” (Mt 6:13)

I think I see the difference. Check out Luke 11. The two may actually be different. Nope I It is the same. I sure hope the NWT isn’t becoming a paraphrase translation!


Edited by BenJepthah
Link to comment
Share on other sites

23 minutes ago, Thesauron said:


The NWT Committee seems to disagree with you, as the recent, non-English editions of the NWT reads “Help us not to give in to temptation.” (Mt 6:13)

Hey, wait a minute! How can a non English translation be translated in English?? Your translation of the non English translation may be the mistranslation. I would bet the verse in the non English is understood more literally in accord with the original.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, BenJepthah said:

While  well intended ( meaning the Pope appears to be being generally kind to God and placing the responsibility for temptation on humans ) the original Greek ( G inter linear translation) does not leave room for this thought. But when compared with 1 Corinthians 10:13 and James 1:13 , it would seem that Jehovah may very well lead us into a position to be tempted or tested but “ not beyond what we can endure”.   

I absolutely disagree with this idea. Jehovah may allow us to be tempted but never brings us into temptation. Never. James 1:13, which you mentioned, says that Jehovah doesn't try (or tempt) anyone with evil things.

 

Please notice the following explanation from the Slave and see how the highlighted words says exactly word for word the same as those non-English NWT translations and the suggestion by the Pope:

 

Quote

*** w09 2/15 p. 18 par. 16 Do Jesus’ Sayings Influence Your Prayers? ***
16 “Do not bring us into temptation, but deliver us from the wicked one.” (Matt. 6:13) How are we to understand these two related requests in Jesus’ model prayer? One thing is certain: Jehovah does not tempt us to commit sin. (Read James 1:13.) Satan—“the wicked one”—is the real “Tempter.” (Matt. 4:3) However, the Bible speaks of God as doing things that he is merely permitting. (Ruth 1:20, 21; Eccl. 11:5) Therefore, “do not bring us into temptation” is a petition that Jehovah not permit us to succumb when we are tempted to disobey him. Finally, the plea “deliver us from the wicked one” is a request that Jehovah not allow Satan to overcome us. And we can be confident that ‘God will not let us be tempted beyond what we can bear.’—Read 1 Corinthians 10:13.

 

The NWT is not a paraphrase translation but as explained before, when the literal rendering obscures the meaning the brothers have resorted to a less literal wording that conveys the right idea. Appendix A1 of the NWT2013 "Principles of Bible Translation" contains a good number of examples where the committee preferred to depart from a literal rendering in favor of a dynamical one.

 


Edited by carlos
Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 minutes ago, carlos said:

I absolutely disagree with this idea. Jehovah may allow us to be tempted but never brings us into temptation. Never. James 1:13, which you mentioned, says that Jehovah doesn't try (or tempt) anyone with evil things.

 

Please notice the following explanation from the Slave and see how the highlighted words says exactly word for word the same as those non-English NWT translations and the suggestion by the Pope:

 

 

The NWT is not a paraphrase translation but as explained before, when the literal rendering obscures the meaning the brothers have resorted to a less literal wording that conveys the right idea. Appendix A1 of the NWT2013 "Principles of Bible Translation" contains a good number of examples where the committee preferred to depart from a literal rendering to a dynamical one.

 

Okay, that all

makes good sense. Then why isn’t the English NWT rendered the same way? 

    If somehow I have conveyed the idea that Jehovah is the actual one doing the tempting rather than allowing the temptation this is not my intent or meaning. 

    I mention paraphrase translation because in the Current English NWT it is quite clearly rendered “ ..lead us into temptation “. Which is e being translated  in the Non-English” for the sake of a cultural context that would otherwise obscure the meaning or being “ Paraphrased “ when translated back into English from the non English.  The error would then be made n the English paraphrase  of the non English Translation of the original. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, BenJepthah said:

I mention paraphrase translation because in the Current English NWT it is quite clearly rendered “ ..lead us into temptation “. Which is e being translated  in the Non-English” for the sake of a cultural context that would otherwise obscure the meaning or being “ Paraphrased “ when translated back into English from the non English.  The error would then be made n the English paraphrase  of the non English Translation of the original. 

I think it's the other way around. Or rather, there is no error in any of the translations. :) When one reads in English "do not bring us into temptation" the natural understanding is that it is Jehovah who brings us into temptation unless we ask him not to. But our publications explain this is just a Hebrew idiom that should be understood as "let us not succumb to temptation". But if that is actually what the text means, why not translate it directly that way?

 

In the case of Matthew 6:13 the committee decided to keep the literal rendering in the revised version of 2013, but it seems they changed their mind more recently. Brother Johan mentioned translations to four different languages that were all released in 2017 or 2018, so it seems the Slave has given instructions to translators in the last years to render that scripture that way. This is no surprise since new clarifications and improved points are made all the time. That train had already left the station for the English version, but the way it's being translated in other languages gives us a glimpse of what the Slave understands in that scripture. :)


Edited by carlos
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hey, wait a minute! How can a non English translation be translated in English?? Your translation of the non English translation may be the mistranslation. I would bet the verse in the non English is understood more literally in accord with the original.

Huh? No. The question regarding this verse came up and was answered via Translation Services. You see, we no longer translate words, but ideas.

🎵“I have listened to Jesus in these troublesome days,

He lights up my path.

As I hear and obey.”

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think the pope 

14 hours ago, carlos said:

We tend to criticize everything the churches do, but that is not fair

Br. Carlos, 

 

I agree with you although I must say that the Catholic Bible doesn’t follow the Greek text anyway :) Catholic Bible says “lead us not” whilst in Greek there isn’t word “lead”. Its not accurate translation. :D In Greek text we read: “do not bring us into temptation” (μη εισενεγκης ημας εις πειρασμον). 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, Guri said:

I think the pope 

Br. Carlos, 

 

I agree with you although I must say that the Catholic Bible doesn’t follow the Greek text anyway :) Catholic Bible says “lead us not” whilst in Greek there isn’t word “lead”. Its not accurate translation. :D In Greek text we read: “do not bring us into temptation” (μη εισενεγκης ημας εις πειρασμον). 

I’m envious of your tech savvy ability to import the Greek text. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hhmm. I wonder why the English edition doesn't put it that way.

A similar expression occurs in Mt 4:1: “Then Jesus was led by the spirit up into the wilderness to be tempted by the Devil.” Again, Jehovah will not tempt us with evil things. So the NWT Committee has suggested “Then Jesus was led by the spirit up into the wilderness, and there the Devil tempted him” or along those lines, if the sentence becomes unclear in the goal language.

🎵“I have listened to Jesus in these troublesome days,

He lights up my path.

As I hear and obey.”

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.

About JWTalk.net - Jehovah's Witnesses Online Community

Since 2006, JWTalk has proved to be a well-moderated online community for real Jehovah's Witnesses on the web. However, our community is not an official website of Jehovah's Witnesses. It is not endorsed, sponsored, or maintained by any legal entity used by Jehovah's Witnesses. We are a pro-JW community maintained by brothers and sisters around the world. We expect all community members to be active publishers in their congregations, therefore, please do not apply for membership if you are not currently one of Jehovah's Witnesses.

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.

JWTalk 23.8.11 (changelog)