Our Ukraine Brothers faced with military service

[CharlieJ]

Hello friends,

 

I don't know if this topic was already posted, but I wanted to see how our brothers in Ukraine were doing regarding military service. The news outlets were reporting that men between a certain age range were required to stay in Ukraine and fight against the invasion. However I wondered if the government is requiring our brothers to fight, or if they are permitted to engage in non-military service as conscientious objectors. I know that we are allowed to do this now after receiving new instruction from the branch some years ago. 

 

I am sure if this is the case we will have many witnessing opportunities in hospitals and other places where we would normally not have witnessing territory.

 

Charlie
 

[carlos]

During the first days of war some members from Ukraine mentioned the brothers there were not allowed to leave the country but they were not being sent to fight. It seems there were so many volunteers eager to fight that there was not enough equipment and weapons for all of them. Not sure if things are still like that after almost two months of war. Maybe some of our members from Ukraine can reply.

[Parale]

I posted this a few days ago:

• https://jwtalk.net/topic/51360-pray-for-our-ukrainian-brothers-and-sisters/?do=findComment&comment=875429

And there was this reply:

• https://jwtalk.net/topic/51360-pray-for-our-ukrainian-brothers-and-sisters/?do=findComment&comment=875436

and also this reply:

• https://jwtalk.net/topic/51360-pray-for-our-ukrainian-brothers-and-sisters/?do=findComment&comment=875526

 

 

 

[CharlieJ]

18 hours ago, carlos said:

During the first days of war some members from Ukraine mentioned the brothers there were not allowed to leave the country but they were not being sent to fight. It seems there were so many volunteers eager to fight that there was not enough equipment and weapons for all of them. Not sure if things are still like that after almost two months of war. Maybe some of our members from Ukraine can reply.

I was happy to see that user Kiku had commented on this very issue recently and mentioned that the brothers must accept 2 years and 3 month of alternative service, but they said that the government has yet to follow up and provide instructions on this. So it seems our brothers are in a holding pattern. 

My concern is that the brothers might face more persecution if the alternative service involves supporting the military, even in a non-violent way. I expect our brothers to reject all alternative service that involves supporting the war effort- so things may get complicated. We pray for the best.

[Ishaya]

I'm still trying to figure out,What non-military service will not in a way be supportive of the war effort.

I feel worried that  every service needed in a combat situation like this is always geared towards one objective which is winning the war, and that will mean that everyone is contributing something towards not losing the war.

 

In the Nazi era,did our German brothers  take up non-military service for the military? 

What was the purpose of the concentration camps,was it for non-military service or for imprisonment?

 

 

[Susan Cook]

3 hours ago, Ishaya said:

I'm still trying to figure out,What non-military service will not in a way be supportive of the war effort.

I feel worried that  every service needed in a combat situation like this is always geared towards one objective which is winning the war, and that will mean that everyone is contributing something towards not losing the war.

 

In the Nazi era,did our German brothers  take up non-military service for the military? 

What was the purpose of the concentration camps,was it for non-military service or for imprisonment?

 

 

You could probably argue that just about any job in Ukraine right now is supporting the war effort directly , or indirectly.

 

What if soldiers come into your grocery store for food? Jehovah does not expect you to deny them service, because he is reasonable.

Edited April 23, 2022 by Susan Cook

[Ishaya]

8 hours ago, Susan Cook said:

 

 

What if soldiers come into your grocery store for food? Jehovah does not expect you to deny them service, because he is reasonable.

Buying food from a grocery store is private business, but cooking food for the soldiers in military camps  looks different imo.

[jwhess]

As to our brothers in Nazi Germany during WW2, it was imprisonment not "alternative service.  In alternative service, you are supposed to be allowed your private time when not engaging in the 8-10 hours of duties.  Theoretically, you are supposed to be able to go home when the work is done. You are supposed to be paid.

 

The concentration camps gave none of these options. Plus, alternative service is not supposed to include any death penalties.  So their situation was a brutal form of imprisonment.

 

We have no reports of our brothers being arrested, imprisoned or tortured for their stand on alternative service at present.  We should not create anxiety over "possible" future problems.  As our recent video showing the brother from malawi and his multi-year experience with just being a non-political citizen in his country lets us know that problems can occur whether there is war or not.

 

During the 1960s and early 1970s, here in the USA the brothers (including me) experienced the injustice of the war-time draft or 'Selective Service' laws.  We were supposed to have alternative service available but I never got the option. From the time I was 17 until I was married and Regular Pioneering  in another state, my Draft Board hounded me several times a year. It took 5 or 6 years before I got a hearing based on my minister's status.  They finally gave me a deferral a few months before the Viet Nam War ended. I never had any alternative service offered.  I watched my friends in the truth go to trial and then prison.  The prison sentences were often longer than the military service time required...🤕

 

Edited April 24, 2022 by jwhess

[Michał]

Working in a general hospital, road building, being a courier for official documents, cleaning a public office, being a janitor in school… the possibilities are endless for alternative service if there’s a will (of the government). 
 

Note though the unjust “alternative” service in Korea mentioned some weeks ago on jw.org

[CharlieJ]

On 4/23/2022 at 9:08 PM, jwhess said:

As to our brothers in Nazi Germany during WW2, it was imprisonment not "alternative service.  In alternative service, you are supposed to be allowed your private time when not engaging in the 8-10 hours of duties.  Theoretically, you are supposed to be able to go home when the work is done. You are supposed to be paid.

 

The concentration camps gave none of these options. Plus, alternative service is not supposed to include any death penalties.  So their situation was a brutal form of imprisonment.

 

We have no reports of our brothers being arrested, imprisoned or tortured for their stand on alternative service at present.  We should not create anxiety over "possible" future problems.  As our recent video showing the brother from malawi and his multi-year experience with just being a non-political citizen in his country lets us know that problems can occur whether there is war or not.

 

During the 1960s and early 1970s, here in the USA the brothers (including me) experienced the injustice of the war-time draft or 'Selective Service' laws.  We were supposed to have alternative service available but I never got the option. From the time I was 17 until I was married and Regular Pioneering  in another state, my Draft Board hounded me several times a year. It took 5 or 6 years before I got a hearing based on my minister's status.  They finally gave me a deferral a few months before the Viet Nam War ended. I never had any alternative service offered.  I watched my friends in the truth go to trial and then prison.  The prison sentences were often longer than the military service time required...🤕

 

Brother Hess, your comment regarding the fact that you "never got the option" to accept alternative service is curious, since our brothers here in the US were not permitted to take alternative service assignments at that time. Any kind of assignment was viewed as supporting the war effort, even if it was in a non-military capacity. 

I have a number of friends in Texas who were sent to Seagoville prison during the Vietnam war after refusing alternative service in a local Texas hospital. At the time, our brothers were told very clearly that such service was unacceptable. It wasn't until decades later that the Governing Body changed their position on alternative service and began allowing brothers to accept certain alternatives offered to them.

Either way, I'm glad you were able to delay and get the deferment, although many of our brothers were not so fortunate.

[jwhess]

7 hours ago, CharlieJ said:

Brother Hess, your comment regarding the fact that you "never got the option" to accept alternative service is curious, since our brothers here in the US were not permitted to take alternative service assignments at that time. Any kind of assignment was viewed as supporting the war effort, even if it was in a non-military capacity. 

I have a number of friends in Texas who were sent to Seagoville prison during the Vietnam war after refusing alternative service in a local Texas hospital. At the time, our brothers were told very clearly that such service was unacceptable. It wasn't until decades later that the Governing Body changed their position on alternative service and began allowing brothers to accept certain alternatives offered to them.

Either way, I'm glad you were able to delay and get the deferment, although many of our brothers were not so fortunate.

Some of the brothers in our area in Cleveland did alternate service in civilian hospitals. I offered Bethel Service, Gilead Service and Special Pioneer Service but I was rejected each time.  They suggested other avenues and I would turn them down and they would schedule additional meetings.  I lived in Indiana and my draft board was closer to Pennsylvania so I had to go 250 miles to each meeting.  I was supposed to be able to request a change of draft boards if I moved but they always rejected that idea as well.  Oh well, eventually I got recognized as a minister and six months later the war started to wind down and the made my classification 1-H (for "holding").  They put all of the exemptions in this category.  then the Viet Nam Warn ended in 1972 and I got too old.

 

All done and dusted...❤️

[jwhess]

Asa a quick update, at least by 1971 we were acknowledging alternate civil service.  But it could not be some kind of non-combatant substitute.

 

Authorities Begin to Listen

On March 26, 1971, three representatives of Jehovah’s witnesses met with a forum representing the ministries of Defense and Justice. The discussion lasted two and a half hours.

One of the first points of discussion presented by the forum was this: “That you wish no part in performing military service is clear and needs no further explanation. But what really is your objection to civil, alternative service?”

The Witnesses explained that it is not that they are opposed to civil service

[Jimi-L]

12 hours ago, CharlieJ said:

Brother Hess, your comment regarding the fact that you "never got the option" to accept alternative service is curious, since our brothers here in the US were not permitted to take alternative service assignments at that time. Any kind of assignment was viewed as supporting the war effort, even if it was in a non-military capacity. 

I have a number of friends in Texas who were sent to Seagoville prison during the Vietnam war after refusing alternative service in a local Texas hospital. At the time, our brothers were told very clearly that such service was unacceptable. It wasn't until decades later that the Governing Body changed their position on alternative service and began allowing brothers to accept certain alternatives offered to them.

Either way, I'm glad you were able to delay and get the deferment, although many of our brothers were not so fortunate.

Was the alternative service a ground for disfellowshipping?

[carlos]

6 hours ago, jwhess said:

Asa a quick update, at least by 1971 we were acknowledging alternate civil service.

The situation may have differed by countries, depending on what every government required. When my turn came to do the military service here in Spain, we were offered a substitute civil service, but the instructions were that service was not acceptable for us either. To be honest, the reasoning was rather confusing and most brothers in that situation didn't really understand it. But anyway we wanted to obey the Slave.

 

Then the w96 5/1 article "Paying Back Caesar’s Things to Caesar" came with an adjustment. It explained that sometimes apparently 1st century Christians didn't object to civilian community services when the authorities required it. So it explained it was a conscience decision every Christian must make by himself. The fact that almost every brother in that situation (me included) decided to accept the substitute service suggests that we never understood the previous explanation. I worked for free for the Red Cross for one year and three months. There is no longer compulsory military service in Spain but in lands where there is it seems few brothers object to a substitute civilian service anymore.

 

[jwhess]

I appreciate the various experiences cited.  I will say that it never came up in my interactions with the US Selective Service system.  I was a Regular Pioneer when I turned 18.  They decided against my being a minister and assigned me a classification of "Conscientious Objector" class 1-O.  I argued with them for a few years and we had back-and-forth meetings.  I got called up for the Armed Forces Physical testing (in 1968, I think). I had  moved to Indiana. The next year they instituted the "draft lottery" to determine who would be called up for military service based on your birthdate.  I was fortunate to get a high number (219 as I recall). So no one bothered me at the time.

 

I married the following year, 1970, and continued to apply for minister status.  In 1971 it was granted (Class 4-D...the D stood for 'divinity').  The following year they lumped all exempted persons in the 1-H class (H was for 'holding').  The induction process ended in June of 1973 and the last draft call was  March 1975.  So my participation was not in the arena of "alternate service" or "civilian service".  If my quotes are wrong or the memories incorrect, I apologize, it has been 55 years ago as an 18 year-old kid...😃

Edited May 17, 2022 by jwhess

[BLEmom]

6 hours ago, carlos said:

. I worked for free for the Red Cross for one year and three months.

Is there no objection based on affiliation of the Red Cross?  I haven’t looked into it lately but have heard some express they would never donate items or take donations from them. That and the Salvation Army. They may not be connected to a religious  entity at all but I was wondering.  Many view them like the YMCA

[carlos]

On 5/17/2022 at 7:08 PM, BLEmom said:

Is there no objection based on affiliation of the Red Cross?  I haven’t looked into it lately but have heard some express they would never donate items or take donations from them. That and the Salvation Army. They may not be connected to a religious  entity at all but I was wondering.  Many view them like the YMCA

While both the Salvation Army and the YMCA have religious connections, the Red Cross has never been related in any way to any religious or political organization since its inception. The red cross in its logo is just the flag of Switzerland with the colors reversed, since Henry Dunant, its founder, was a Swiss. The fundamental principles of this organization include impartiality, neutrality and independence.

 

Of course, collaborating with them is a personal choice. I did not see an issue with it, but someone else might.

 

 

[Kiku]

On 4/21/2022 at 8:37 PM, CharlieJ said:

I was happy to see that user Kiku had commented on this

 

[Michał]

1 hour ago, carlos said:

While both the Salvation Army and the YMCA have religious connections, the Red Cross has never been related in any way to any religious or political organization since its inception. The red cross in its logo is just the flag of Switzerland with the colors reversed, since Henry Dunant, its founder, was a Swiss. The fundamental principles of this organization include impartiality, neutrality and independence.

 

Of course, collaborating with them is a personal choice. I did not see an issue with it, but someone else might.

 

 

Oh, I didn’t know about that. Thanks! What about Red Crescent?

[Eejay]

On 5/8/2022 at 9:19 AM, Michał said:

the possibilities are endless for alternative service if there’s a will (of the government). 

 

Ukraine.pdf