Immigration enforcement and JW's

[Shawnster]

1 hour ago, Doug said:

This law has the potential to shake-up congregations

How so? 

[dljbsp]

14 minutes ago, BLEmom said:

Do you always obey the speed limits exactly or do you sometimes have to go with the flow of traffic that drives a lot faster?

Just one example of how circumstances dictate actions….

 

My father used to remind me: they’re called speed limits, not speed requirements. We’re not obligated to go as fast as the sign says—let alone faster.

 

So no, I’ve never gone with the flow of traffic because it was faster. I get out of the way.

 

Several years ago, I was given a magnet that said jw.org. I stuck it to my car. From that day on, I felt it more than ever—everywhere I drive, every interaction I have, people know who I represent. Even if they don’t know my name, they know who I belong to.

 

That doesn’t make me better than anyone else. It just means my conscience won’t let me represent Jehovah in one breath and ignore the law in the next.

 

That same conscience used to cause me real problems growing up. In my teens and early twenties, I had a hard time separating my personal standards from how I viewed others. My parents had a strong conscience, and their love for Jehovah shaped everything in our home. I saw watching an R-rated movie as wrong—and I saw brothers and sisters who watched them as bad. But then I noticed something: Jehovah was still blessing them. Some had Bible studies. Some of those studies got baptized. If Jehovah could use and bless them, who was I to judge?

 

My conscience hasn’t changed—but my view of my brothers and sisters has. I now realize: different consciences, same devotion. And Jehovah sees the heart.

 

[Doug]

3 hours ago, Shawnster said:

How so? 

 

At least two ways immediately come to mind.

The obvious ~ Pulling families apart when someone is detained and deported.

The not-so-obvious ~ It could disturb the peace of the congregation if some feel that the law should be obeyed (these ones likely to be here legally) while others disagree (the ones who don't want to be deported).

 

I understand that elders don't enforce Caesar's law.  One way the government controls society is by issuing a permit or a license for various activity. Here in California, a person is required to have a contractors license if he or she is doing more than $1,000 worth of work for a customer, which includes the cost of material.  And, no, you cannot work by the hour to get around it.  And yet, my experience has shown elders, MS and pioneers break that law on a daily basis. Yet they can serve.

 

Until now, this 1952 Immigration and Nationality Law was largely ignored, just like other laws that impact a fundamental aspect of life, such as earning a living as a self-employed person  But now, things are changing. The law may begin to see enforcement, which will force those among us who are not here legally to make a choice.

[bobby]

Why would a jw think it ok to break some of Caesar's laws and not others? 

 Where in the bible does it say that ok to do? In 

every country in the world, including the United States, you have to have a passport or a work visa to reside in that country

if you're not a citizen of that country 

 

 

[trottigy]

20 hours ago, Doug said:

 

At least two ways immediately come to mind.

The obvious ~ Pulling families apart when someone is detained and deported.

The not-so-obvious ~ It could disturb the peace of the congregation if some feel that the law should be obeyed (these ones likely to be here legally) while others disagree (the ones who don't want to be deported).

 

I understand that elders don't enforce Caesar's law.  One way the government controls society is by issuing a permit or a license for various activity. Here in California, a person is required to have a contractors license if he or she is doing more than $1,000 worth of work for a customer, which includes the cost of material.  And, no, you cannot work by the hour to get around it.  And yet, my experience has shown elders, MS and pioneers break that law on a daily basis. Yet they can serve.

 

Until now, this 1952 Immigration and Nationality Law was largely ignored, just like other laws that impact a fundamental aspect of life, such as earning a living as a self-employed person  But now, things are changing. The law may begin to see enforcement, which will force those among us who are not here legally to make a choice.

 

I'm going to believe that the elders MS and pioneers are not intentionally breaking the law.

 

I work for a building department and issue permits for work all the time. I have noticed that many owners come in saying they are doing said work. There is no way they could do all the work they often propose, but they do have a right to get a permit for work at their own home and property as an "owner builder".

 

It is not against the law for them to hire someone as a "helper" and pay them hourly. We have an owner/ builder sign a form that THEY are responsible for workers compensation, insurance, etc IF they hire anyone. It is a given that very few if any actually do this, but we are only required to let them know that the owner/ builder is responsible should anything happen.

 

My guess is that any you see that is “breaking the law on a daily basis” feel they are within the letter of the law, and they probably are. And this leads back to your earlier question: what will the congregations do with this new law or wrinkle in the law? The same as always – do their best to obey. Will they make mistakes and misunderstand? ABSOLUTELY. Will they try not to? ABSOLUTELY. Will we have some US local need’s part on the exact details of the law and how each person should respond? I doubt it. I can’t see the branch wanting to be involved in educating about all the laws the US has on the books and becoming responsible for any training that isn’t exactly correct.

 

Now, if suddenly the law changes again and religious organizations are required to read some statement or other – we will -> provided the statement doesn’t contradict the scriptures. This is like what we do with the notice to register.

 

 

PS - let's not assume the worst of our brothers and sisters, especially ones who are not here to respond for themselves. It is always best to assume - just like you - that they are doing the best they can to follow Jehovah's laws and principles. One of those being - to obey Ceasar.

 

EDIT: One more thought -> I live in the central coast of California now after having lived in Las Vegas for most of my life. There are a great many who are not in the country legally that work in construction in Las Vegas. I was a building inspector for more than a decade and saw a LOT of things that led me to believe this. But was I required to enforce immigration laws as part of my job? NOPE! And Thank GOD!

 

Did I know some JWs that were not here legally? Yep! One who was in a foreign language group with me. She was brought over by her parents when she was a baby. To become legal, she had to leave the US and file for entry and citizenship/ green card first. But that would mean going to Mexico and trying to get legal status their first – which also would have been difficult as her mom didn't take any documentation with her. Anyway – long story short – she did not do that. She was never allowed to do things that were considered “exemplary” in the congregation, but we didn’t turn her in either. It is not the congregation’s responsibility to do that either. I know she was conflicted and worked hourly. We also had a sister who DID have a work permit that DID do things correctly and there was tension there from time to time. How the sister not here legally justified things in her own mind – I do not know. Perhaps she hoped for the end of this crazy world where lines on a map make a person “illegal”, but I did my best to provide spiritual support – keeping the bible book of Philemon in mind constantly!

Edited yesterday at 02:14 AM by trottigy

[Doug]

3 hours ago, bobby said:

Why would a jw think it ok to break some of Caesar's laws and not others? 

 Where in the bible does it say that ok to do? 

 

Subjection (obedience) to the superior authorities is relative, not absolute.

 

With that, imperfect humans may rationalize that subjection is a personal decision, between themselves and God.

 

Life is complex.

[Shawnster]

12 hours ago, bobby said:

Why would a jw think it ok to break some of Caesar's laws and not others? 

Here is one answer, Bobby. This is Jerry's experience. 

 

Did I know some JWs that were not here legally? Yep! One who was in a foreign language group with me. She was brought over by her parents when she was a baby. To become legal, she had to leave the US and file for entry and citizenship/ green card first. But that would mean going to Mexico and trying to get legal status their first – which also would have been difficult as her mom didn't take any documentation with her. Anyway – long story short – she did not do that. She was never allowed to do things that were considered “exemplary” in the congregation, but we didn’t turn her in either. It is not the congregation’s responsibility to do that either. I know she was conflicted and worked hourly. We also had a sister who DID have a work permit that DID do things correctly and there was tension there from time to time. How the sister not here legally justified things in her own mind – I do not know. Perhaps she hoped for the end of this crazy world where lines on a map make a person “illegal”, but I did my best to provide spiritual support – keeping the bible book of Philemon in mind constantly!

 

So, this sister was bought to the US as a baby. It was not her choice to be here illegally. Now she is a sister and the only way to resolve her illegal status is very difficult and, perhaps, impractical. If she were to attempt to legalize her status, it's possible she would have to leave the only home she ever really knew and perhaps could never return. 

 

Some came to the United States illegally and then found the the truth later in life. Others, like this sister, were babies and had no choice. 

[BLEmom]

I’ve been in a congregation with a good number of illegals before. I didn’t ask them but certain things would be noticeable. Plus I was pioneering at the time and you find out things…
What could happen if we concern ourselves overmuch with what is not our business?

We could look down on our brothers for their choices. 
We could counsel them and cause divisions. 
We could give bad advice. 
The best thing to do is to just let the elders deal with those issues and continue to care for them regardless of what their status is or isn’t. 
We don’t even need to know why they are here. We don’t need to know if it was their choice or not. 
It’s not our business. 

Things we did have to do is ensure those that didn’t have a drivers license didn’t drive in service. They would tell us on their own. We didn’t ask.
We would not be able to pick them up and take them to meetings if they didn’t comply with child seat laws. At the time, our CO told us if we ask them to get car seats and they don’t….i had to stop picking up a sister and her kids. 
Other than that, how they crossed the border or how they got a social security number or anything else, wasn’t our business. We helped all the best we could and were a united congregation.  

[Doug]

5 hours ago, Shawnster said:

Here is one answer, Bobby. 

So, this sister was bought to the US as a baby. It was not her choice to be here illegally. Now she is a sister and the only way to resolve her illegal status is very difficult and, perhaps, impractical. If she were to attempt to legalize her status, it's possible she would have to leave the only home she ever really knew and perhaps could never return. 

 

 

We understand how the sister finds herself in the predicament.  And it is tragic for her to live in the shadows.

But his question was "Why would a JW think it is ok to break some of Caesar's laws?"

 

You say "One answer is it would be very difficult to fix. She might have to leave".

This answer is pretty much the same reason why JW's don't comply with the contracting laws ~ it's difficult. It's a hassle.

 

Bible principles, please.  As we know, relative subjection applies when there's a conflict between what Caesar wants and what Jehovah disallows.  At times, "we must obey God as ruler rather than men".  Is there any scenario where that principle applies to immigration or employment?  

 

If this law requiring registration (fingerprints and address) is enforced, I worry for my brothers and sisters. It's a very difficult situation. But then, brothers went to jail rather than join the military, and that was a very difficult decision, but the right one (Acts 5:29).  Difficulty isn't the line between Caesar and God.

[trottigy]

24 minutes ago, Doug said:

 

We understand how the sister finds herself in the predicament.  And it is tragic for her to live in the shadows.

But his question was "Why would a JW think it is ok to break some of Caesar's laws?"

 

You say "One answer is it would be very difficult to fix. She might have to leave".

This answer is pretty much the same reason why JW's don't comply with the contracting laws ~ it's difficult. It's a hassle.

 

Bible principles, please.  As we know, relative subjection applies when there's a conflict between what Caesar wants and what Jehovah disallows.  At times, "we must obey God as ruler rather than men".  Is there any scenario where that principle applies to immigration or employment?  

 

If this law requiring registration (fingerprints and address) is enforced, I worry for my brothers and sisters. It's a very difficult situation. But then, brothers went to jail rather than join the military, and that was a very difficult decision, but the right one (Acts 5:29).  Difficulty isn't the line between Caesar and God.

 

Actually, a shorter answer for her - no matter where this sister went, she would have been considered illegal - as she had no Mexico documentation either. So, she had to decide which law to break (enter Mexico illegally or stay in the US illegally) - as no matter what she did it would be illegal. I think she just went with the one her mom chose for her many years earlier. This wasn’t a case of “hard” it was a case of not possible.

Edited yesterday at 06:02 PM by trottigy

[bobby]

i understood that kids have no choice, not about that.

What getting at is an adult choosing to break Caesar laws, 

i know we put god laws and principles first before Caesar laws 

 

[LeolaRootStew]

55 minutes ago, BLEmom said:

I’ve been in a congregation with a good number of illegals before. I didn’t ask them but certain things would be noticeable. Plus I was pioneering at the time and you find out things…
What could happen if we concern ourselves overmuch with what is not our business?

We could look down on our brothers for their choices. 
We could counsel them and cause divisions. 
We could give bad advice. 
The best thing to do is to just let the elders deal with those issues and continue to care for them regardless of what their status is or isn’t. 
We don’t even need to know why they are here. We don’t need to know if it was their choice or not. 
It’s not our business. 

Things we did have to do is ensure those that didn’t have a drivers license didn’t drive in service. They would tell us on their own. We didn’t ask.
We would not be able to pick them up and take them to meetings if they didn’t comply with child seat laws. At the time, our CO told us if we ask them to get car seats and they don’t….i had to stop picking up a sister and her kids. 
Other than that, how they crossed the border or how they got a social security number or anything else, wasn’t our business. We helped all the best we could and were a united congregation.  

 

We are not the enforcement arm of the government, so we aren't required to report them, and the elders have handled the spiritual side of things; there is nothing for us to do except treat them as family.

 

That being said, we can point out that something is illegal without judging our brothers. We can even do as the link said and encourage them to follow the law, but it is ultimately up to them and, just like with vaccines and covid, we will not harass them over their decision.

 

34 minutes ago, Doug said:

Bible principles, please.  As we know, relative subjection applies when there's a conflict between what Caesar wants and what Jehovah disallows.  At times, "we must obey God as ruler rather than men".  Is there any scenario where that principle applies to immigration or employment?  

 

 

I don't think it does. They are not choosing between Caesar's things and Jehovah's, they are choosing between Caesar and their own will.

[trottigy]

7 minutes ago, bobby said:

i understood that kids have no choice, not about that.

What getting at is an adult choosing to break Caesar laws, 

i know we put god laws and principles first before Caesar laws 

 

 

I am just glad I am not with ICE and having to enforce any of these. We each have to stand before our God and answer for our choices. Personally, I find it is best to not judge someone else (Matt 7:1-3) and just do my best to live up to the laws I am supposed to follow.  

 

 

[Doug]

12 minutes ago, LeolaRootStew said:

 there is nothing for us to do except treat them as family.

That being said, we can point out that something is illegal without judging our brothers. We can even do as the link said and encourage them to follow the law, but it is ultimately up to them and, just like with vaccines and covid, we will not harass them over their decision.

 

I don't think it does. They are not choosing between Caesar's things and Jehovah's, they are choosing between Caesar and their own will.

 

Well said.  It's their personal decision.  For some reason the branch keeps reminding the young brothers what the law requires of them when they turn 18.  

 

I hope the branch provides guidance on this sensitive topic for those struggling with the decision and their conscience. Now that enforcement is more likely !!!!

Edited yesterday at 06:29 PM by Doug
make it better

[Tortuga]

39 minutes ago, Doug said:

For some reason the branch keeps reminding the young brothers what the law requires of them when they turn 18

Good point. I assume that non-compliance with military registration could open a huge can of worms the organization wants to avoid, or they are required by law to issue that reminder. Perhaps as the immigration laws become more stringent and enforceable, we will see reminders from the organization for the same reasons. We'll see.

 

EDIT: I just Googled it and apparently the SSS doesn't require organizations to issues reminders.

Edited yesterday at 07:07 PM by Tortuga

[Doug]

1 hour ago, trottigy said:

 

Actually, a shorter answer for her - no matter where this sister went, she would have been considered illegal - as she had no Mexico documentation either. 

 

Mexican hospitals don't register births???

 

If she was born at home, yeah, she's a woman without a country!

[Qapla]

Adjacent to this topic ... in some lands our brothers have had to flee the country and cross the border to a bordering country and live as refugees. We even had a video where they fled, and the kids had to continue on their own. The family made it across the border.

 

Technically, when they do that, they are entering that country illegally ... yet it is not considered wrong for them to flee to a refugee camp.

[Doug]

4 minutes ago, Qapla said:

Adjacent to this topic ... in some lands our brothers have had to flee the country and cross the border to a bordering country and live as refugees. We even had a video where they fled, and the kids had to continue on their own. The family made it across the border.

Technically, when they do that, they are entering that country illegally ... yet it is not considered wrong for them to flee to a refugee camp.

 

For sure.  And they aren't sneaking across the border.  They are accommodated by the host country as true refugees, fleeing persecution or war. They don't go wherever they want. They stay in the camp.

There are congregations formed temporarily in some of these camps and the friends preach.  ❤️

[dljbsp]

3 hours ago, Qapla said:

refugees

 

Fleeing violence ≠ automatic refugee status

 

Under U.S. asylum and refugee law, fleeing general violence, crime, or poverty—even if it’s deadly—doesn’t automatically qualify someone as a refugee.

 

To qualify, they must prove:

 

“A well-founded fear of persecution based on race, religion, nationality, membership in a particular social group, or political opinion.”

A person brought to the United States as an infant, with no documentation from either the U.S. or their country of origin (such as Mexico), may become stateless—meaning they are not legally recognized as a citizen by any country. Without proof of birth or nationality, the U.S. may not grant them legal status, and Mexico may refuse to accept them for deportation if citizenship cannot be confirmed. If the person wasn’t born on U.S. soil, they do not qualify for birthright citizenship, and even humanitarian legal paths like asylum or Special Immigrant Juvenile Status are difficult without records. As a result, such individuals may remain in legal limbo—unable to work, travel, or belong anywhere—trapped between countries that offer no clear path to citizenship or legal recognition.

 

Summary: Stateless individuals with no documentation can end up in legal limbo, unrecognized by any nation and without access to lawful status.

[rocket]

On Monday I had a brother from the Spanish Congregation alsong with a brother from the English Congregation mow my lawn. Both are in their 20's.  The Spanish brother is an illegal from Mexico and as such cannot be used as a MS or elder in the Congregation.  He is registered with the government and is subject to be deported any day they choose.  The problem is, he did not break any laws coming to this country.  He was 3 years old when his parents brought him here.  He can be deported to a country he has never lived in before.  Is that fair? Is that the way Jehovah said to treat foreign residents?  What is God's thinking?

 

Deut. 10:19  You too must love the foreign resident, for you became foreign residents in the land of Egypt.

 

Leviticus 19:34  "The foreigner who resides with you should become to you like a native among you; and you must love him as yourself, for you were foreign residents in the land of Egypt. I am Jehovah your God." NW

Leviticus 19:34 "The immigrant that lives with you shall be the same to you as a native of your own stock, and you shall love him as yourself, because you were immigrants in Egypt; I am your God Jehovah." Byington

 

Was Jesus thinking as a model for Christians any different?  How did he treat the Samaritans?  They were hated by the Jews.  

[LeolaRootStew]

5 minutes ago, rocket said:

On Monday I had a brother from the Spanish Congregation alsong with a brother from the English Congregation mow my lawn. Both are in their 20's.  The Spanish brother is an illegal from Mexico and as such cannot be used as a MS or elder in the Congregation.  He is registered with the government and is subject to be deported any day they choose.  The problem is, he did not break any laws coming to this country.  He was 3 years old when his parents brought him here.  He can be deported to a country he has never lived in before.  Is that fair? Is that the way Jehovah said to treat foreign residents?  What is God's thinking?

 

Deut. 10:19  You too must love the foreign resident, for you became foreign residents in the land of Egypt.

 

Leviticus 19:34  "The foreigner who resides with you should become to you like a native among you; and you must love him as yourself, for you were foreign residents in the land of Egypt. I am Jehovah your God." NW

Leviticus 19:34 "The immigrant that lives with you shall be the same to you as a native of your own stock, and you shall love him as yourself, because you were immigrants in Egypt; I am your God Jehovah." Byington

 

Was Jesus thinking as a model for Christians any different?  How did he treat the Samaritans?  They were hated by the Jews.  

 

We are to respect the superior authorities that exist now, we don't get to replace the current laws of the Nations with the laws of ancient Israel whenever we find one we'd prefer more. That's just not how it works.

 

We have the ability to love foreigners regardless of the law; we do not have the ability (or the right) to tell modern Nations that they must change their laws to fit our sensibilities. That is politics - Jesus said to stay out of that, even if it's "unfair".

[Korotkiy]

On 4/12/2025 at 8:29 PM, BLEmom said:

 For instance, Russia and Ukraine…the branch as far as I know, didn’t tell the friends to stay or leave, they left things up to them. 

 

Its not really true.. As far as I know every publisher has been asked if he have a REAL reason to stay on occupied territory.

And really those who stayed in place had a significant problems. For example those who did not to took part in the referendum on joining Russia, which was conducted with armed military personnel can be arrested and sometimes killed. Some brothers told that there is COVID here, we will visit you later.

[Doug]

3 hours ago, rocket said:

 What is God's thinking?

 

Deut. 10:19  You too must love the foreign resident, for you became foreign residents in the land of Egypt.

Leviticus 19:34 "The immigrant that lives with you shall be the same to you as a native of your own stock, and you shall love him as yourself, because you were immigrants in Egypt; I am your God Jehovah." Byington

 

 

What is God's thinking?  Great question!  We who dwell in the "land of decoration" (the spiritual estate of Jehovah's people) don't care where you were born or what color you are.  As Jesus said, our identity is love for one another.

 

However, Jehovah wants us to be obedient to the superior authorities unless it conflicts with His laws and principles.

I don't know if God's thinking can be simplified on the subject of immigration, but here are some things that we know to be true:

 

We have free will.

We need to deal with reality, unlike the man at James 1:23,24  "Like a man looking at his own face in a mirror.  He looks at himself, and he goes away and immediately forgets what sort of person he is".

James 3:2  "We all make mistakes many times".

Romans 13:1-4  "Do you want to be free of fear of the authority? Keep doing good. But if you are doing what is bad, be in fear, because it is not without purpose that it bears the sword".

 

Some are here through no fault of their own. Others are here illegally by choice.  Unfortunately, the law doesn't make a distinction.