GB 2025 Update #4

[Dhanyel]

There can be all kinds of interpretations and changes depending on what the governing body decides. We must obey and move forward. All of this shows how false religion is a failed institution that loses more power and influence each day. We must stay spiritually focused and not allow a lack of understanding to cause us to stumble.

[Dages]

1 hour ago, Shawnster said:

I guess I don't follow. How would our acceptance or use of the cross change according to what you describe? What would we do differently that we are not doing now? 

I don't know. I'd say it's maybe more a question of language, to make it easy-access. Like using the word "cross" and "crucify"? I really don't know, I try to imagine.

 

It comes from the fact that our French revised NWT use names that are quite traditionnal in France, so catholic oriented, if I may say to.
Maybe it could be a way to ease the access to the Good news, for the people who will join us during the GT.

Edited 9 hours ago by Dages

[Tortuga]

26 minutes ago, Dages said:

Maybe it could be a way to ease the access to the Good news, for the people who will join us during the GT.

It sounds like you are suggesting that some things need to be compromised or watered down to attract more people. What does Jehovah say about that?

[jwhess]

13 minutes ago, Tortuga said:

It sounds like you are suggesting that some things need to be compromised or watered down to attract more people. What does Jehovah say about that?

As we know, the original meaning of the Latin "crux" included the upright pole or stake as we show it. So if the Catholics hadn't commandeered the word to use for a '2-beamed' device, we could have correctly used the words cross or crucify.  Like the the English word "rapture", we don't use it because of the misinformation Evangelicals have attached to it.

 

So it is not the word that is wrong, it is the false religionists using it in a wrong way that has given them a bad flavor with us.

[Dustparticle]

24 minutes ago, jwhess said:

As we know, the original meaning of the Latin "crux" included the upright pole or stake as we show it. So if the Catholics hadn't commandeered the word to use for a '2-beamed' device, we could have correctly used the words cross or crucify.  Like the the English word "rapture", we don't use it because of the misinformation Evangelicals have attached to it.

 

So it is not the word that is wrong, it is the false religionists using it in a wrong way that has given them a bad flavor with us.

 

If I'm right, if he was killed on a crux, then the Bible writers would used it, but they did not. They used the Greek word Xylon 5 times, Acts 5:30, 10:9, 13:29 Galatians 3:13, 1 Peter2:24. The word Xylon before and during the time Jesus means stake, pole or tree.

Edited 8 hours ago by Dustparticle

[Robinson]

I think the point of the update that stood out to me the most was at time 2:55 - "Mature Christians don't need a rule for every situation." I think that's why everyone is asking about the other things. While others judge people for thinking about other things they may need to consider due to certain situations and circumstances, it's clear from this statement that the GB is not going to provide rules on everything. Some things, we'll have to figure out ourselves, even if other Christians feel differently. Would I do Thanksgiving? I don't plan on it. It is a custom and tradition that is NOT seen as political, nationalistic, or religious where I'm from. It's simply seen as a time when family and friends gather for a meal. Since the last brief mention that I could find from our website is 20 years ago, I'm not judging, condemning, or counseling any brother or sister who decides to celebrate.

[Shawnster]

31 minutes ago, Dustparticle said:

 

If I'm right, if he was killed on a crux, then the Bible writers would used it, but they did not. They used the Greek word Xylon 5 times, Acts 5:30, 10:9, 13:29 Galatians 3:13, 1 Peter2:24. The word Xylon before and during the time Jesus means stake, pole or tree.

 

I don't think that's exactly the same in this case though. Crux is Latin. Of course the Bible writers did use that word - they wrote in Greek, nit Latin. 

 

Had they wrote in Latin, maybe they would have used crux, but only if that word also meant stake or upright pole. 

[careful]

7 hours ago, Dages said:

Not that Jesus was killed on a cross, but the symbol in itself could be out of the progressive elongation of the panel above Jesus head/hands.

ive always thought this.....there WAS a cross above him....it was the sign that you could read as you observed Jesus hanging there.

[BLEmom]

7 hours ago, Dages said:

If I wanted to guess a controversial point that could smoothen, I'd say the cross.

 

Not that Jesus was killed on a cross, but the symbol in itself could be out of the progressive elongation of the panel above Jesus head/hands.

After all, if you ask a kid to draw the stake with Jesus in it, he/she will probably draw the typical cross we know.

 

I'd rather have this than birthdays.

 

And that might help people join us during the GT.

Wasn’t that basically the whole idea behind mixing pagan customs into Christianity?  They were appealing to the pagans to join by incorporating pagan customs. 🧐

Why would we consider doing that?  

[careful]

we dont use the word "church"  , as i understand it, because of the meaning that false religion has given it....not really because it has an innaccurate meaning.    we have therefore avoided words simply because of their popular use.  This might be why we avoid saying that Jesus died on a stake with a crossbeam or cross even though technically he did have a crossbeam above his head on which was written "king of the Jews".

[BLEmom]

For reference on the cross:  https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/502013284#h=1:0-18:0

 

Pertinent points from the article:

 

According to A Critical Lexicon and Concordance to the English and Greek New Testament, stau·rosʹ “never means two pieces of wood joining each other at any angle.”

The Bible also uses the Greek word xyʹlon as a synonym for stau·rosʹ. (Acts 5:30; 1 Peter 2:24) This word means “wood,” “timber,” “stake,” or “tree.”bThe Companion Bible thus concludes: “There is nothing in the Greek of the N[ew] T[estament] even to imply two pieces of timber.”

 

 

However, the Bible does not condone adopting pagan symbols to help make new converts.

[Dhanyel]

Two points to consider:

 

1. The word used in the original Greek

 

The Greek term stau·ros, commonly translated as “cross,” in the biblical context means a vertical stake — without implying a crossbeam — according to various lexicographical sources and biblical studies.

 

Another term, xylon, translated as “wood” or “stake,” is also used, without indicating the presence of two pieces of wood.

 

2. The position of the arms

 

If Jesus had died on a cross (with a crossbeam), his arms would have been stretched out sideways, which would cause extreme difficulty in breathing, forcing him to push himself up constantly.

 

However, the accounts and the expression used (“torture stake”) indicate that his arms were likely stretched upward, tied or nailed to a vertical stake.

The upward position of the arms, the weight of the body pressing against the lungs, the relatively quick death by asphyxiation, and the biblical terms used all point to a simple upright stake — without a crossbeam.

[LeolaRootStew]

1 hour ago, careful said:

we dont use the word "church"  , as i understand it, because of the meaning that false religion has given it....not really because it has an innaccurate meaning.    we have therefore avoided words simply because of their popular use.  This might be why we avoid saying that Jesus died on a stake with a crossbeam or cross even though technically he did have a crossbeam above his head on which was written "king of the Jews".

 

We also don't use church because in the Bible it was referring to the people, not a building. So we wouldn't go to church, we are the church. Probably to avoid confusion as well as association with Christendom, we say congregation.

[Dustparticle]

1 hour ago, Dhanyel said:

Two points to consider:

 

1. The word used in the original Greek

 

The Greek term stau·ros, commonly translated as “cross,” in the biblical context means a vertical stake — without implying a crossbeam — according to various lexicographical sources and biblical studies.

 

Another term, xylon, translated as “wood” or “stake,” is also used, without indicating the presence of two pieces of wood.

 

2. The position of the arms

 

If Jesus had died on a cross (with a crossbeam), his arms would have been stretched out sideways, which would cause extreme difficulty in breathing, forcing him to push himself up constantly.

 

However, the accounts and the expression used (“torture stake”) indicate that his arms were likely stretched upward, tied or nailed to a vertical stake.

The upward position of the arms, the weight of the body pressing against the lungs, the relatively quick death by asphyxiation, and the biblical terms used all point to a simple upright stake — without a crossbeam.

 

 Here is another reference regarding Xylon. About 800 years ago a Greek poet Homer used this in his 2 poems and it refers to stake.

 

 

IIiad 24:453

 [450] for which the Myrmidons had cut pine and which they had built for their king; when they had built it they thatched it with coarse tussock-grass which they had mown out on the plain, and all round it they made a large courtyard, which was fenced with stakes set close together. The gate was barred with a single bolt of pine w hich it took three men to force into its place, [455]

 

Odyssey 24:11

[10] With huge stones had he built it, and set on it a coping of thorn. Without he had driven stakes the whole length, this way and that, huge stakes, set close together, which he had made by splitting an oak to the black core;¹ and within the court he had made twelve sties close by one another, as beds for the swine, and in each one 

ReplyForward

[Shawnster]

One affect the principle from this broadcast should have is help us "not sweat the small stuff" when it comes to certain phrases people use. 

 

For example, someone saying "good luck" or wishing someone luck. Do any of us honestly believe when someone says that phrase they are invoking the gods of luck and destiny? Does this expression have religious or spiritistic connections in our community? 

24 minutes ago, LeolaRootStew said:

 

We also don't use church because in the Bible it was referring to the people, not a building. So we wouldn't go to church, we are the church. Probably to avoid confusion as well as association with Christendom, we say congregation.

 

It's the person not the place! 

[computerwiz]

2 hours ago, BLEmom said:

Wasn’t that basically the whole idea behind mixing pagan customs into Christianity?  They were appealing to the pagans to join by incorporating pagan customs. 🧐

Why would we consider doing that?  

 

People are just trying to figure out the reason behind these changes.  And as you indicate above, they're looking in the wrong direction.

 

Brother Lett explained it very well.  If there's any question, we can watch it again.  And take what he says at face value without trying to read between the lines or find some hidden reasons.  

[LeolaRootStew]

5 minutes ago, Shawnster said:

One affect the principle from this broadcast should have is help us "not sweat the small stuff" when it comes to certain phrases people use. 

 

For example, someone saying "good luck" or wishing someone luck. Do any of us honestly believe when someone says that phrase they are invoking the gods of luck and destiny? Does this expression have religious or spiritistic connections in our community? 

 

I had a conversation with my vice-principal in school because he wished me good luck and I told him I didn't believe in it - it led to a Bible study. I don't think I will change my stance on it especially since a lot of people still genuinely believe that luck is real.

[Shawnster]

1 hour ago, LeolaRootStew said:

 

I had a conversation with my vice-principal in school because he wished me good luck and I told him I didn't believe in it - it led to a Bible study. I don't think I will change my stance on it especially since a lot of people still genuinely believe that luck is real.

 

And that's conscience at work. Perfect example. 

[jwhess]

5 hours ago, Dustparticle said:

 

If I'm right, if he was killed on a crux, then the Bible writers would used it, but they did not. They used the Greek word Xylon 5 times, Acts 5:30, 10:9, 13:29 Galatians 3:13, 1 Peter2:24. The word Xylon before and during the time Jesus means stake, pole or tree.

Sorry I am late to reply.  It is what Br. Shawn said. it is a Latin word and the Bible was written in Greek and Hebrew (mostly).

 

Jerome did make one of the first better known translation into Latin in before 400 CE and he used the word 'crux' (and similar cruces and crucem).  The first Latin translations appeared around 250 CE and so just 200 years after Jesus' death, the word 'crux' began to emerge into Biblical language.  The 2-beam 'cross' came later.

[jwhess]

2 hours ago, LeolaRootStew said:

 

We also don't use church because in the Bible it was referring to the people, not a building. So we wouldn't go to church, we are the church. Probably to avoid confusion as well as association with Christendom, we say congregation.

 

Of the top 10 English definitions of the word “Church” all of them except the first one refer to people, the believers not a building.  We define it reasonably correctly but we use it wrongly.

 

CHURCH - noun

1. a building for public Christian worship.

 

2. public Christian worship of God; a Christian religious service.
3. none the church or the Church, the whole body of Christian believers.
4. Sometimes Church. any organized group of Christian believers professing the same creed and acknowledging the same ecclesiastical authority; a Christian denomination.
5. that part of the whole Christian body, or of a particular denomination, belonging to the same city, country, nation, etc..
6. a body of Christians worshipping in a particular building or constituting one congregation.
7. ecclesiastical organization, power, and affairs, as distinguished from the state.
8. the clergy and religious officials of a Christian denomination.
9. the Christian faith.
10. none the church or the Church, the organized body of professing Christians before the Reformation.

 

Dictionary.com

Edited 2 hours ago by jwhess

[Dhanyel]

Let's get back to the topic 😅😅😅😅

[MullumMiss]

32 minutes ago, Dhanyel said:

Let's get back to the topic 😅😅😅😅

I’ll drink to that…….🥂🍻

[Tortuga]

9 minutes ago, MullumMiss said:

I’ll drink to that…….🥂🍻

"Quick, please, give me some of the red that you have there, for I am thirsty!" Genesish 25:30

[Brazilian2024]

It seems like this topic will never end...🫢😅🫠😶‍🌫️