GB 2025 Update #4

[jwzhang]

9 hours ago, Tortuga said:

"Quick, please, give me some of the red that you have there, for I am thirsty!" Genesish 25:30

br Richard slow down, I think you're starting to slur some of your words there near the end 🍺 😅

[vjohzon]

Having a mother we never really lose the anointed we just can’t see them anymore, but I believe in Jehovah‘s love and that the anointed after Armageddon or after the thousand year reign, they will be able to come and visit us since the judging will be done in the world will be at peace. I could be wrong, but I don’t think so. Be that the anointed too have many ties to people on the Earth so visiting would amplify Jehovah‘s love for all of us.

Edited Wednesday at 08:06 PM by vjohzon

[Ivar]

On 7/4/2025 at 6:21 PM, Jimi-L said:

I wasn't aware that raising a toast was considered a sin. It's probably not a very common custom in Finland.

  

On 7/5/2025 at 2:30 PM, Leslie.m said:

Toasting is considered in the Bible Study:

 

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1102021243?q=toasting&p=par

The Bible study books from before "Enjoy Life Forever!" also mention it.
 

How to remain in God's love: https://www.jw.org/en/library/books/in-gods-love/do-celebrations-holidays-please-god/
 

Quote

 

THE ORIGINS OF TOASTING

 

19, 20. What are the origins of toasting?

 

19 A common practice at weddings and other social occasions is toasting. During a toast, one person expresses good wishes while others raise their glasses. How should Christians view toasting?

 

20 The International Handbook on Alcohol and Culture says that toasting probably comes from an ancient pagan custom “in which a sacred liquid was offered to the gods.” This was done “in exchange for a wish, a prayer summarized in the words ‘long life!’ or ‘to your health!’” In ancient times, people used to raise their cups to ask their gods for a blessing. But that is not how Jehovah provides blessings.—John 14:6; 16:23.

 

 

Keep yourselves in God's love: https://www.jw.org/en/library/books/gods-love/celebrations-holidays-that-displease-god/

 

Quote

TOASTING—A RELIGIOUS GESTURE?

19, 20. What does one secular source say about the origin of toasting, and why is this custom unacceptable to Christians?

19 A common practice at weddings and on other social occasions is toasting. The 1995 International Handbook on Alcohol and Culture says: “Toasting . . . is probably a secular vestige of ancient sacrificial libations in which a sacred liquid was offered to the gods . . . in exchange for a wish, a prayer summarized in the words ‘long life!’ or ‘to your health!’”

20 True, many people may not consciously view toasting as a religious or superstitious gesture. Still, the custom of lifting wine glasses heavenward might be viewed as a request to “heaven”—a superhuman force—for a blessing in a way that does not accord with that outlined in the Scriptures.—John 14:6; 16:23. 

Now we focus more on this principle: https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/102003687

 

Quote

When considering whether to include a piñata at a social gathering, Christians should be sensitive to the consciences of others. (1 Corinthians 10:31-33) A main concern is, not what the practice meant hundreds of years ago, but how it is viewed today in your area. Understandably, opinions may vary from one place to another. Hence, it is wise to avoid turning such matters into big issues. The Bible says: “Let each one keep seeking, not his own advantage, but that of the other person.”—1 Corinthians 10:24.

 

[Ostria]

On 7/8/2025 at 6:09 PM, Brazilian2024 said:

It seems like this topic will never end...🫢😅🫠😶‍🌫️

 

Forgive me brothers...but it must be done

 

[Ivar]

On 7/4/2025 at 4:07 PM, Dages said:

Unlike toasting, that isn't found in the Bible, all the occurrences of birthdays in the Bible are negative.

I would not expect that.

  

On 7/5/2025 at 2:42 AM, jwzhang said:

Someone already mentioned that birthdays from the Bible all have a negative connotation.

  

On 7/5/2025 at 8:35 AM, Sebastian said:

4. the two biblical birthdays ended badly

  

On 7/5/2025 at 7:31 PM, Jwanon said:

As for early Christians, Origen wrote in the 3rd century:
"Of all the holy people in the Scriptures, no one is recorded to have kept a feast or held a great banquet on his birthday. It is only sinners (like Pharaoh and Herod) who make great rejoicings over the day on which they were born into this world below." (Origen, in Levit., Hom. VIII, in Migne P.G., XII, 495)

  

On 7/7/2025 at 1:34 PM, Dages said:

And birthdays are not cool in the Bible.
toasts aren't really in the Bible.

 

Here are the two birthdays mentioned in the Bible: 

 

1. Genesis 40:20-22 20  

 

Quote

Now the third day was Pharʹaoh’s birthday, and he made a feast for all his servants, and he brought out both the chief cupbearer and the chief baker in the presence of his servants. 21  And he returned the chief cupbearer to his post of cupbearer, and he continued to hand the cup to Pharʹaoh. 22  But he hanged the chief baker, just as Joseph had interpreted to them.

 

2. Mark 6:19-28

 

Quote

He·roʹdi·as was nursing a grudge against him and wanted to kill him, but she could not. 20  For Herod was in fear of John, knowing him to be a righteous and holy man, and he was keeping him safe. After hearing him, he was at a great loss as to what to do, yet he continued to hear him gladly. 21  But a convenient day arrived when Herod spread an evening meal on his birthday for his high officials and the military commanders and the most prominent men of Galʹi·lee. 22  And the daughter of He·roʹdi·as came in and danced and pleased Herod and those dining with him. The king said to the girl: “Ask me for whatever you want, and I will give it to you.” 23  Yes, he swore to her: “Whatever you ask me for, I will give it to you, up to half my kingdom.” 24  So she went out and said to her mother: “What should I ask for?” She said: “The head of John the Baptizer.” 25  She immediately rushed in to the king and made her request, saying: “I want you to give me right away on a platter the head of John the Baptist.” 26  Although this deeply grieved him, the king did not want to disregard her request, because of his oaths and his guests. 27  So the king immediately sent a bodyguard and commanded him to bring John’s head. So he went off and beheaded him in the prison 28  and brought his head on a platter. He gave it to the girl, and the girl gave it to her mother.

 

Regarding pharaoh's birthday, it is possible that it was not his real birthday but a symbolical one. I found this in an academic article after doing a Google Scholar search:

 

Quote

 

Despite the fact that Genesis 40:20 speaks of amnesty on the occasion of “the pharaoh’s birthday”, the current discourse in Egyptology does not permit a notion of a feast dedicated to a pharaoh’s birthday prior to Achaemenid Empire and the epoch of the Ptolemies (the 26th Dynasty). What we read about Egypt in the story of Joseph reflect historical realities not prior to the Saite Period, and it must be noted that birth dates of pharaohs were never recorded as such. Amnesties were declared on occasions of dates on which kings had assumed power. A birth festival is mentioned in the Rosetta and Canopus Decrees in three languages: in Egyptian it literally means “opening of the year (= new year) of his majesty” [6, p. 209–214; 7, p. 205–206; 8, p. 89–91; 9, p. 59, 64]. Here I would like to acknowledge the help of I. V. Bogdanov, a scholar of Egyptian studies, for briefing me on the matter.

https://aasjournal.spbu.ru/article/view/1208/1047  page 283, footnote 2

 

 

If that is true, there is only one mention of a natural birthday in the Bible (i.e. Herod's).

I did a quick search after remembering something about dogs.
https://www.jw.org/en/search/?q=dogs&link=%2Fresults%2FE%2Fbible%3Fsort%3Dbook%26q%3D

 

So, dogs are also not presented in a positive light in the Bible. How do you all think this relates to birthdays?

[jwhess]

1 hour ago, Ivar said:

If that is true, there is only one mention of a natural birthday in the Bible (i.e. Herod's).

Thank you for your research Br. Ivar.  And welcome to our forum.

[mc1989]

6.07.2025 tarihinde saat 02:23'te Barış Dostu şunları söyledi:

Sanırım bu, bu müzik videosundaki kardeşin sonunda kadeh kaldırmış olabileceği anlamına geliyor! OOPS 🫢😂(Bekle, videoda rol alan kardeşler bunu netleşmeden önce zaten yapıyorlardı 😉)

 

 

 

Which song is this?

[Dolce vita]

2 hours ago, mc1989 said:

 

Which song is this?

A Beautiful one !

 

An original song. Its title: “To whom could I go away?”

[franceml]

https://www.jw.org/en/library/music-songs/original-songs/to-whom-could-i-go-away/

[franceml]

When we understand our complete dependence on Jehovah, our God, then as littles sheeps we will be more than contents to follow our Shepherd ´s voice and no one else.

[Adam!]

This Treasures item in September will be considered. I'm sure many will look at it very closely in light of this update 

 

https://www.jw.org/en/library/jw-meeting-workbook/september-october-2025-mwb/Life-and-Ministry-Meeting-Schedule-for-September-1-7-2025/

[Doug]

In the image, the table with the bowl suggests some kind of ritual and the brother is explaining why he won't participate.

 

Can someone who knows what this gathering is about explain to the rest of us?

[LeolaRootStew]

1 hour ago, Doug said:

In the image, the table with the bowl suggests some kind of ritual and the brother is explaining why he won't participate.

 

Can someone who knows what this gathering is about explain to the rest of us?

 

PICTURE DESCRIPTION: After researching funeral customs, a Witness family member kindly explains his belief to his relatives.

[Jwanon]

On 7/8/2025 at 1:28 AM, Hope said:

Knocking on wood was for good luck.

 

It was a superstitious practice, those who did this believed that doing this would have a supernatural effect.

 

Now if we compare with the clinking of glasses, it is possible that ancient people did this to invoke luck or health from the gods (though I could not find good evidence for this, https://archive.ph/6VWUc ), but today we do this as a friendly gesture, as brother Lett said.

 

So it's simply seen as a way to convey merriness, but knocking on wood has no other meaning than attempting to avert misfortune

 

That is why these two practices are different, and why we don't see it as objectionable to toast

Edited 23 hours ago by Jwanon

[Shawnster]

2 hours ago, Jwanon said:

Now if we compare with the clinking of glasses, it is possible that ancient people did this to invoke luck or health from the gods (though I could not find good evidence for this, https://archive.ph/6VWUc ), but today we do this as a friendly gesture, as brother Lett said.

 

This seems to be the deciding factor. We cannot point to any specific superstitious or religious origin to toasting, so clearly it's a custom that has lost all significance.  In contrast, these customs in honor of the dead still have religious significance today. 

 

Nice point, @Jwanon

Edited 21 hours ago by Shawnster

[MullumMiss]

4 hours ago, Adam! said:

This Treasures item in September will be considered. I'm sure many will look at it very closely in light of this update 

 

https://www.jw.org/en/library/jw-meeting-workbook/september-october-2025-mwb/Life-and-Ministry-Meeting-Schedule-for-September-1-7-2025/

In many cultures including my original, some funeral customs are associated with spiritism. I haven’t lived in NZ for over 50 years but as a child we went to maori tangis which is a traditional maori funeral ceremony.  From memory in the 70s or 80s when we no longer lived in NZ, attendance was strongly discouraged.  Many of the customs relate to the after life and the spirits of those already there.  

So I can understand the reasoning in the Treasures part.  

[blanchard]

On 7/6/2025 at 3:18 AM, Friend of Peace said:

Also, this broadcast also made me ponder on cofetti/rice throwing at wedding and saying “bless you” to people who sneeze

and also the act of saying "happy new year" ...

[Osprey]

Another funeral custom that I didn't really see as wrong is to throw a flower in the grave at the end. I saw it as a kind gesture to put something beautiful into grave as a goodbye to a person. With no additional supernatural meaning. And all other people in our culture see it the same way.

Because we had some explanations that it has pagan background, we tried to avoid it. But still... nobody sees it that way today, what is wrong with it? I'm curious, how do others see it through updated lens now? To be honest, my conscience did not tell me not to do it before, it bothered me more if I was the only one that did not want to do it.

[blanchard]

38 minutes ago, Osprey said:

Another funeral custom that I didn't really see as wrong is to throw a flower in the grave at the end.

I leave in France and I have no problem with this and since many years I do it whithout questions for me

[rocket]

1 hour ago, Osprey said:

Another funeral custom that I didn't really see as wrong is to throw a flower in the grave at the end. I saw it as a kind gesture to put something beautiful into grave as a goodbye to a person. With no additional supernatural meaning. And all other people in our culture see it the same way.

Because we had some explanations that it has pagan background, we tried to avoid it. But still... nobody sees it that way today, what is wrong with it? I'm curious, how do others see it through updated lens now? To be honest, my conscience did not tell me not to do it before, it bothered me more if I was the only one that did not want to do it.

 

This is a personal choice IMHO. I personally leave flowers on a family grave but others in the family do not.

[exactor]

On 7/11/2025 at 8:51 AM, Doug said:

the brother is explaining why he won't participate

Left photo:

Our brother researches the Celebrations that Christians avoid in the Scriptures for Christian Living publication.

 

Right photo:

The following is speculative:

 

Traditional Funeral Customs in South Africa: An Analytical Overview

Based on Visual and Cultural Contextualization

Introduction

This paper examines potential cultural origins and funeral customs inferred from visual elements in a photograph, with a focus on practices common among South African ethnic groups such as the Xhosa, Zulu, and Sotho. The analysis highlights mourning period rituals, death anniversary commemorations, family roles, and practical considerations for outsiders, while acknowledging regional variations and limitations in interpretation.

 

Cultural Identification and Contextual Analysis

Visual cues in the photograph suggest a Southern African origin, potentially South African, based on:

• Traditional Attire: Headscarves and patterned clothing resembling styles worn by Xhosa, Zulu, and Sotho communities.
• Domestic Setting: A cozy interior with lace tablecloths, wooden furniture, and floral decor indicative of rural or semi-urban homes.
• Communal Practices: A group gathered in a circle, potentially engaged in mourning or ritual discussions, aligning with African funeral customs.

These observations remain tentative due to limited contextual information and potential hybrid cultural influences.

 

Mourning Period Rituals

South African funeral customs emphasize communal participation and spiritual observance during the mourning period, which typically lasts days to months:

 

Core Practices

Ritual	Description
Initial Ceremonies	"Umgcwabo" (Xhosa vigil): All-night prayers, hymns, and storytelling.
Burial Practices	Traditional burial facing east; graves marked with stones or offerings.
Clothing Requirements	Black/dark attire for mourners; headscarves for women; matching outfits for unity.
Dietary Restrictions	Avoidance of salty/rich foods; communal meals with pap, meat, and vegetables.
Spiritual Practices	Animal slaughter (e.g., cow/goat) to honor ancestors; cleansing rituals by sangoma/pastor.

 

Behavioral and Spiritual Expectations

• Grief Expression: Loud wailing/ululation by women; subdued behavior from close relatives.
• Social Seclusion: Close family members may avoid social activities for 7–30 days.
• Cleansing Rituals: "Ukusula" (Zulu) marks the end of mourning, involving herbal washes or blessings.

Death Anniversary Commemorations

Annual remembrance practices reinforce ancestral bonds and community ties:

Key Customs

1.     Memorial Services ("Ukukhumbula"):

o   Prayers, hymns, and speeches at home or gravesite.

o   Animal slaughter; meat distributed to attendees and offered to ancestors.

2.     Grave Visits:

o   Cleaning graves; laying flowers; pouring libations (water, beer).

o   Common on first anniversaries to honor the deceased.

3.     Family Reunions:

o   Extended family gatherings with storytelling by elders.

o   Ongoing ancestral guidance sought via dreams/divination.

 

Family Roles and Responsibilities

Role	Responsibilities
Elders	Oversee rituals; provide spiritual guidance; ensure tradition adherence.
Women	Prepare communal meals; lead mourning expressions (e.g., ululation).
Men	Manage burial logistics; slaughter animals; represent the family publicly.
Children	Assist with minor tasks (e.g., fetching water); learn customs through participation.

 

Practical Considerations for Outsiders

Aspect	Guidelines
Attire	Conservative, dark clothing (black/navy); follow family lead on traditional wear.
Behavior	Respectful silence; avoid casual conversation; offer condolences via handshake/nod.
Participation	Contribute food/observe rituals; avoid leading roles unless explicitly invited.

 

Limitations and Considerations

1.     Regional Variations: Customs differ across ethnic groups (e.g., Xhosa vs. Zulu burial directions).

2.     Modern Influences: Urbanization and Christianity alter traditional practices.

3.     Speculative Analysis: Visual interpretation lacks verbal/contextual validation; cultural hybridity possible.

 

Conclusion

This paper synthesizes traditional South African funeral customs, emphasizing communal rituals, spiritual practices, and family roles. While the analysis provides a foundational framework, it underscores the need for localized consultation to address regional and individual variations. Respect for cultural diversity and ethical engagement with communities remain critical in cross-cultural interactions.

[Jwanon]

2 hours ago, Osprey said:

what is wrong with it?

 

I've never heard anyone say it is wrong.