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We live in a computer simulation?


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Have you had a discussion at any time with someone who says that we may be living in a computer simulation designed by aliens, or by our future, much more intelligent descendants?

Neil DeGrasse Tyson is one who has claimed this and considers it more than a 50-50 chance!

 

I have pondered this and wondered how best to counter the claim, with little success I might add.  But today I read this short article on Evolution News which gives the most simple explanation of why that claim cannot be true.

 

Read it for yourself here:

https://evolutionnews.org/2017/07/of-course-you-arent-living-in-a-computer-simulation-heres-why/

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HI Brother Christopher,

 

Good topic you started :)

Sometime last year I watched a televised "Panel Discussion" from the Smithsonian Institute in Washington D.C. with 3 experts including Theoretical Physicists and Neil DeGrasse Tyson. And the topic was something like, "Is Our Universe a Computer Simulation?"

 

While there was some laughter and fun during the discussion as the subject was kind of humorous, what I found very interesting was that as these experts expressed how or why our universe could be a computer simulation, they were speaking with some conviction about the "design" and apparent "programming" behind the laws of the universe. But because they were all speaking about a "Computer Simulation", they didn't realize that they were making references to a "Designer" or a very powerful "mind",  in which this could have caused some in the audience to think of the designer or programmer as God!

 

So maybe this would be a way of addressing this topic with someone in the ministry. Maybe we could ask the person who raised this topic, "What evidence do you see in the universe that may indicate a 'Programmer' has designed this universe as a computer simulation?"

 

Then we take note of every time the person uses any kind of words such as "design", "programming, "created", "intelligence", etc. And then after they express their thoughts, we can  find common ground with them by expressing something like this: 

"Yes, I very much agree with you when you said this about design(or intelligence, programming, etc)"

"But rather than this vast universe being just some kind of computer simulation, I see the same evidence as you do and have concluded along with millions of others that just as any computer program today has an intelligent 'programmer' or 'designer' who created it, so also the incredible programming and design that is abundantly evident in our universe can only from an extremely wise and powerful mind.  And so you might very interested to know that some years ago I came to learn who this vastly higher intellect and powerful person is that designed  or created our universe and that He even has a personal name. Have you ever heard of the Grand Designer, Jehovah? "


Edited by Beggar for the Spirit
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I just think of the scripture about Jehovah's dynamic energy created everything... so simply put we and everything is energy  but highly organized.... we are all part of Jehovah's energy.

They say that physical mass is actually an illusion and that we mostly are a bunch of space in between all the particles making up atoms and what not....

so ya.. highly organized from Jehovah's power/wisdom/ and understanding.....

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A computer program will always end until it's in a loop. That does mean the program will continuously repeat it's code or else it will quit. An event will always trigger the same functions. So that means everything will always happen exactly the same way but with a different outcome. The outcome could always be predicted etc.

So... we're robots! Aaaaaaaah. :D

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While it is fun to consider the implications of being in a simulation, it is interesting that there are people who actually believe this!

I mentioned Tyson in my post, but in a discussion on evolution with some people, one actually raised this as a serious consideration.

 

I like your reasoning, brother Neil, above on how to talk to someone on this subject, thanks for that.

 

I thought that the simple explanation given by the neuroscientist was brilliant too.

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Reminds me of when I had this thought come upon as a form of OCD. I was terrified for days trying to convince myself it wasn't true, when the real fact of the matter is "proving it true" not vice versa.  

 

I came to these conclusions however, along with scientific data that shows mimicking a reality to the degree that we experience would not be possible.

 

 Creating a virtual reality to such detail would really be impossible, as well as completely meaningless and ludicrous. People have their own lives to work on. Maintaining such a system would be a lot of hassle with no real meaningful purpose. And to think that everyone else around you would be an illusion and you for some reason… are the only one who is real, and this whole make believe universe was all about tricking just you… well it’s the stuff crazy conspiracy theorists believe in. The universe is obviously far too complex and varied to be any kind of simulation, the motivation behind such a creation also would be all together meaningless. If we had no physical bodies in a base reality and we were not plugged into a machine, but our very existence was in fact that we "are" pixels and bytes, then that means those people just literally created life and sentience out of nothing, so even if life was just in electronic form, it changes nothing, that would "be our reality". To have such power would be God-like. And we already have a God, and the base reality we 'already have' is the result of his creation.

 

Not only would such a course to play a trick on a single person, or entire species, if multiple people were plugged into a virtual reality be meaningless, it would also be immoral. I can’t ever imagine any nation or group of people which such insight and genius to use their abilities to do such a thing. Not to mention that to such a superior race capable of such a thing, it would be awfully petty and empty. Can you imagine the complexity of maintaining food intake, birth and death control whilst synchronising it with a virtual world? What a waste of time and effort for a petty experiment. If one had such power to create an infinite universe, it would be easier just to create real people in a real reality… which is what we have.

 

People could argue that these higher species have no morality and that’s why they do it. But if was such a case, these people would not be able to work together before turning on themselves first, and also it would leave open the question of where ‘our’ morality and love came from too. Since if not from the creators, where else? If such creators were capable of such morality others would have a say, just as they would in our world, the whole program would not be capable of lasting.  They would also for some reason, have to control events and have the ability to read our minds in order to play God (since we know the truth is real), and... for the grand scheme of.... what exactly? "

 

Also, it leaves open an infinite cycle, how would ‘they’ know they were also not in a virtual reality?  

 

 

“If a house is divided against itself, that house cannot stand.” – Mark 3:25


Edited by EccentricM
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  • 2 weeks later...

Sometimes people are so smart that they are dumb. People blindly follow what started as a logical concept to a completely ridiculous conclusion. Since the level of complexity to create a simulation is by necessity far greater than the complexity of what is stimulated, it raises the question of why would anyone one do anything so dumb and wasteful on the largest Scale?  The concept is so full of holes that anyone with a bit of common sense can spot, that is shows how dumb some of this world's "great minds" really are. Another favorite example is of otherwise brilliant people like Steven Hawkins being worried about mankind being wiped out by super smart AI programs deciding to wipe out mankind by operating killer robots. The concept is totally a non_threat since the "A" in AI stands for "artificial ", meaning that computers still don't have and never will have any real intelligence.  People, even famous scientists, are only experts in theIr area of expertise,  in other areas they are just as dumb as the rest of us and some are even dumber as shown by the occasional crazy science story. The news loves the quote scientists and engineers as authorities on things in areas that the respective person has no training or real experience. Global warming is regularly "disproved" in the popular press by people who are not climatologists and are completely unqualified to support their conclusions that are in complete conflict with all of the evidence. Just more proof that common sense isn't so common even among the educated. The joke is that a college once wanted to have a class on common sense, but they were unable to locate a college professor who knew the subject material.

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2 hours ago, Wm-Scott said:

Sometimes people are so smart that they are dumb

It's very true. I wrote a little something on this from personal experience on the matter.  There seems to be a trade off where one can become so deep and analytical, common sense becomes overridden. The result of imperfection. It's a noticeable phenomenon that gifted people often pay for it with other issues. Seems that the imperfect brain can only process so much and has to let another area go. 

 

https://theuniverseofeccentricm.wordpress.com/2017/06/01/with-great-intelligence-comes-great-stupidity/

 

Quote

people like Steven Hawkins being worried about mankind being wiped out by super smart AI programs 

My answer to this is; just press the off switch lol. It's like being afraid of a rouge vacuum cleaner, just take the plug out the socket. :lol:

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I think there are a lot of people who are seen as great scientists, who are actually just people who weren't very good at science and so turned to television as their career path instead, and that's basically what Neil DeGrasse Tyson is.  The man repeatedly seems like a complete idiot, and yet is constantly on TV.  I've seen him give a lecture about how badly designed he thinks the universe is so there can't be a God, but simultaneously he thinks it's so well designed it must be a computer simulation?  What kind of scientist is so stupid they can't see the contradiction between those two arguments?  (Except, I guess, someone who knows the scientific facts point to a designer, but is emotionally biased towards refusing to accept there's a God.)

 

It reminds me of the scripture at Psalms 10:4, "In his haughtiness, the wicked man makes no investigation; All his thoughts are: There is no God."  Examples like this show that the real spirit behind the promotion of atheism today has nothing to do with scientific evidence, because even atheists are perfectly capable of recognizing how the evidence points to a creator - just so long as you change the language of the debate to avoid the creator being referred to as God, because in their haughtiness they refuse to acknowledge the moral authority of God, even while they themselves are actually pointing out the evidence for him!

 

Quote

Another favorite example is of otherwise brilliant people like Steven Hawkins being worried about mankind being wiped out by super smart AI programs deciding to wipe out mankind by operating killer robots. The concept is totally a non_threat since the "A" in AI stands for "artificial ", meaning that computers still don't have and never will have any real intelligence.

Firstly, you've made the same mistake there that I always do when I try to say his name - it's Hawking, not Hawkins.  I'm never sure why I always do that - I think it's because I'm confusing his name with that of Richard Dawkins who also makes fantastic claims about things he has no understanding of - but it's good to know someone else does it!

Secondly, the difference between real intelligence and a very complicated algorithm hasn't stopped computers from beating world champions at Go, learning to visually recognise objects, or being able to answer general questions well enough to win at Jeopardy, all of which would have been considered impossible for a computer ten years ago, so I wouldn't be dogmatic about them learning to simulate human intelligence in other ways.  They would, however, have to be extremely stupidly programmed in order to consider destroying mankind.  The computer that won at Go, while making moves that were never predicted, was essentially programmed to play Go.  The computer that beat humans at Jeopardy was programmed to answer questions in that format.  It's hard to see a computer, no matter how intelligent, destroying mankind unless somebody programmed it to pursue the most effective ways it can find of destroying all humans.  This is widely recognized as a bad plan.  What's more, if a computer did want to do this, it would have to be quick about it, given that pretty much every computer depends on humans for it's continued operation - even if it doesn't require any parts replacing for a few years, it probably needs the power grid to remain operational, and it wouldn't be able to keep up a worldwide attack if the internet went down - all these things are maintained by humans, so its attack would be suicidal, as well as being ineffective if it didn't have a worldwide effect instantaneously, which is why if some computer did want to attack us, it would surely do so with some sort of biological weapon or something.  Killer robots would be the worst possible choice of weapon for an AI since they use so much energy - our energy-efficiency would be the one advantage we would still have if there were computers as clever as we were!  Asimo has to charge for ages to walk up some stairs and needs a massive battery on it's back, we recharge for another hour's activity by eating a biscuit! (Which is one possible answer to the question 'Why did Jehovah make us get injured so easily?' - stuff made out of denser material takes much more energy to sustain.)  Also of course, there aren't very many killer robots, because most people recognize that, as noted earlier, mass-manufacture of killer robots is a bad idea.  https://what-if.xkcd.com/5/

But there is one last note.  Even if no machines turn against humans in the natural course of events, there are various instances in the Bible of Jehovah affecting situations so that people's chariots, the modern weapons of war in that time, were useless.  At Armageddon, what will happen to any modern weapons of war?  Will they turn against their operators?  Or just be made useless?

"Computerized drones, fight back against the angelic army!"

"I'm sorry Dave, I can't let you do that."

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HI Brother David,

 

Good scripture you put in your post! :)

Psalms 10:4

 "In his haughtiness, the wicked man makes no investigation; All his thoughts are: There is no God."

 

Here are some other interesting translations that I liked of this good verse:

New Living Translation
"The wicked are too proud to seek God."

 

Holman Christian Standard Bible
"In all his scheming, the wicked arrogantly thinks: " There is no accountability, since God does not exist." 

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12 hours ago, Ferb said:

I think there are a lot of people who are seen as great scientists, who are actually just people who weren't very good at science and so turned to television as their career path instead

Bill Nye the science guy.

 

He was recently on T.V promoting non-binary genders. The whole show was awful, never mind the most horrendous song I have ever heard at the end (as well as the performance of it). A lot of people have given him stick for it. To promote the argument of there being more than two genders (or no genders) is that clownfish can change their sex.... and this somehow applies to us...? 

 

I'v heard a lot of other stuff about his new show, just terrible stuff, and it's targeted towards kids. It even promotes that being straight is "not normal", I literally quote from one of the show's animated cartoon shots which depicted talking icecream characters; "who just wants one flavour of icecream? It's natural" and encourages literal bisexual orgies amongst pre teens, calling it natural, and that being just heterosexual and not having orgies as "unnatural". 

 

Just all about money and agendas, regardless of the truth of the matter. 


Edited by EccentricM
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I assisted Bill Nye on two of his shows while he was still in Seattle. I only saw him but worked closely with some of his crew. Irritated me that no credit was given to my company. My grandkids thought he was great when they saw me on his "Bill Nye the Science Guy" show. Since then I have seen no redeeming feature in his show. He belittles the Bible and belief in a creator, prefers that nature 'designed' everything.

Bye Bye Bill

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