Religion in the news

[daydream]

On 1/24/2025 at 2:15 PM, Dages said:

Question 20 of the second part of the Baptism questions

*** od p. 201 Part 2: Christian Living ***
20. Why should you obey the government?

Spoiler

*** od p. 201 Part 2: Christian Living ***
• “Let every person be in subjection to the superior authorities, for there is no authority except by God; the existing authorities stand placed in their relative positions by God.”—Rom. 13:1.
 

https://www.jw.org/finder?wtlocale=E&docid=1102014953&srctype=wol&srcid=share&par=62

[cme]

In my opinion, we are beginning to enter a dark tunnel and, as we move through this tunnel it will get darker and darker until we emerge on the other side where we can finally see light.

 

We wait for the GB and see what they say in the coming months.

[Witness1970]

11 hours ago, SteveAus said:

a possible rift developing between the Church & Government over Trumps immigration crackdown? 

 

Source

There was also the religious service Trump Vance, and their wives attended.  During the service the woman preaching said that people were "scared" and asked that Trump act with "kindness and mercy."  Vance was upset that it was said.  

[BLEmom]

https://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/maddowblog/jd-vance-clashes-catholic-bishops-gop-line-religion-evolves-rcna189404

 

From the article….

 

What's more, it’s unusual, to put it mildly, to see a prominent American political leader use such pointed language in reference to Catholic leaders. “Are they actually worried about their bottom line?” is the kind of question that, I suspect, will not be well received by the USCCB.

 

 

[Hope]

12 hours ago, Witness1970 said:

There was also the religious service Trump Vance, and their wives attended.  During the service the woman preaching said that people were "scared" and asked that Trump act with "kindness and mercy."  Vance was upset that it was said.  

 

I heard that minister's little speech to that effect. It really was not inflammatory at all - not partisan or accusatory. Quite a soft, reasonable request for "kindness and mercy" for all of the people Trump was elected to lead. It's rather remarkable that so much offense was taken by the politicians and their families. 😕  But definitely not surprising. It will be an interesting few years ahead...

Edited January 27 by Hope

[rocket]

@Hope  All the plastered saints have no mercy.

[Tortuga]

1 hour ago, Hope said:

 

I heard that minister's little speech to that effect. It really was not inflammatory at all - not partisan or accusatory. Quite a soft, reasonable request for "kindness and mercy" for all of the people Trump was elected to lead. It's rather remarkable that so much offense was taken by the politicians and their families. 😕  But definitely not surprising. It will be an interesting few years ahead...

[LeolaRootStew]

2 hours ago, Hope said:

 

I heard that minister's little speech to that effect. It really was not inflammatory at all - not partisan or accusatory. Quite a soft, reasonable request for "kindness and mercy" for all of the people Trump was elected to lead. It's rather remarkable that so much offense was taken by the politicians and their families. 😕  But definitely not surprising. It will be an interesting few years ahead...

 

She asked for mercy for gay and transgender people, as well as illegal aliens. That sounds pretty partisan, but I agree she was very gentle about it. I don't think anything will come of it.

[Witness1970]

11 hours ago, Hope said:

 

I heard that minister's little speech to that effect. It really was not inflammatory at all - not partisan or accusatory. Quite a soft, reasonable request for "kindness and mercy" for all of the people Trump was elected to lead. It's rather remarkable that so much offense was taken by the politicians and their families. 😕  But definitely not surprising. It will be an interesting few years ahead...

 

8 hours ago, LeolaRootStew said:

 

She asked for mercy for gay and transgender people, as well as illegal aliens. That sounds pretty partisan, but I agree she was very gentle about it. I don't think anything will come of it.

Is it partisan to ask for kindness & mercy for people.  As Christians, we treat everyone with kindness.  We also respect the people even if we don't agree with their actions.

 

(Proverbs 29:2) . . .When the righteous become many, the people rejoice; but when anyone wicked bears rule, the people sigh.
 

[LeolaRootStew]

1 hour ago, Witness1970 said:

 

Is it partisan to ask for kindness & mercy for people.  As Christians, we treat everyone with kindness.  We also respect the people even if we don't agree with their actions.

 

(Proverbs 29:2) . . .When the righteous become many, the people rejoice; but when anyone wicked bears rule, the people sigh.
 

 

Yes, it's partisan.

[Dages]

53 minutes ago, LeolaRootStew said:

Yes, it's partisan.

It was definitely political. Non neutral.

Edited January 28 by Dages

[Mike047]

Partisan is surely when someone supports one particular political party, or group, or even one particular individual or their way of life to the exclusion of all else. It is a heavily biased viewpoint. Was it partisan to ask for mercy for a group to be included with others to whom mercy should be shown? 

 

When Jehovah brings back the unrighteous along with the righteous, surely that will help us to understand that some, at present following a worldly immoral lifestyle, can change and become acceptable to him. some may yet respond to us if we show unbiased concern for them, just as the LPMD brochure encourages us to consider all people, unless they reject us out of hand.

[Dages]

Just now, Mike047 said:

Was it partisan to ask for mercy for a group to be included with others to whom mercy should be shown? 

Yes. She was expressing personal comments on her view of Trump's politics.

[Mike047]

That may be true David, but we are talking about a principle, since the expression shown above does not include intent in any direction, that contains unacceptable bias. That is, if you exclude her personal view, which I had. 

[Hope]

12 hours ago, LeolaRootStew said:

 

She asked for mercy for gay and transgender people, as well as illegal aliens. That sounds pretty partisan, but I agree she was very gentle about it. I don't think anything will come of it.

Why are they not worthy of mercy? 😟

 

Who is not worthy of mercy? 😞 

[LeolaRootStew]

5 minutes ago, Hope said:

Why are they not worthy of mercy? 😟

 

Who is not worthy of mercy? 😞 

 

When did I say they are not worthy of mercy? 

[Shawnster]

19 minutes ago, Hope said:

Why are they not worthy of mercy? 😟

 

Who is not worthy of mercy? 😞 

 

That's not the point. 

 

Everyone is worthy of mercy.  Everyone is worthy of being treated with kindness and equality.  In Jehovah's eyes all of us are created equal.  There is neither Jew nor Greek.  

 

Let's look at the Watchtower and see where the true threat to our Christian neutrality comes from in regards social injustice and reform.

 

*** w75 8/15 p. 498 par. 23 Do Not Let Yourself Be Sidetracked in the Race for Life ***
23 Sometimes social, racial and religious barriers and prejudices result in hardship and oppression for many. They often make the Christian’s race for life much more difficult. The tendency is to speak out, to fight back, to take things into one’s own hands, to demand justice. For example, a minority group may strike out for more rights. Protest marches may be organized to put pressure on the government. Boycotts may be arranged to bring pressure on merchants. Leaders among the group may appeal to the pride of their people, and by speech or by coercion they may seek the Christian’s support. What will you do if you are faced with this situation or a similar one? Again there is a need to maintain neutrality and avoid getting involved in the affairs of this world. Rest assured that Jehovah will settle accounts for any wrongs committed. “Return evil for evil to no one. Provide fine things in the sight of all men. If possible, as far as it depends upon you, be peaceable with all men. Do not avenge yourselves, beloved, but yield place to the wrath; for it is written: ‘Vengeance is mine; I will repay, says Jehovah.’”—Rom. 12:17-19.

 

24 Hence, do not let yourself be sidetracked from the race for life by the propaganda or pressure designed to cause you to compromise on your Christian neutrality. You will be criticized because of this, since the trend in Christendom today is for both the parishioners and their ministers to get involved in social causes. They have stopped waiting for God’s kingdom to bring the real remedies that are needed for man’s social problems, and they have taken sides. But they fail to recognize that no matter on what side a person may place himself in this world, he is still on the Devil’s side, if he actively supports any of the nationalistic programs and policies put forward by this system of things.
https://www.jw.org/finder?wtlocale=E&docid=1975604&srctype=wol&srcid=share&par=27

 

Was Jesus Christ a Reformer?

Some might claim that Jesus Christ was a reformer. Is that true? This question is important for anyone who wants to be a true servant of God, since that involves being a close footstep follower of Christ.—1 Peter 2:21.

 

There can be no doubt that Jesus had the ability to bring about reform. As a perfect man, he could have blazed a trail with sweeping changes and innovations. Yet, Christ did not initiate a campaign to rid the world of corrupt officials or dishonest businessmen. He did not lead street protests against injustice, although he himself was to become the innocent victim of an outrageous miscarriage of justice. At times, Jesus had “nowhere to lay down his head.” Still, he did not start a pressure group to draw attention to the needs of the homeless. “You always have the poor with you,” he explained when some expressed concern over finances. Jesus kept himself neutral in conflicts of the world.—Matthew 8:20; 20:28; 26:11; Luke 12:13, 14; John 6:14, 15; 18:36.

 

Of course, such problems as poverty, corruption, and injustice did not leave Christ unmoved. In fact, the Bible shows that he was deeply upset over the pitiful state of mankind. (Mark 1:40, 41; 6:33, 34; 8:1, 2; Luke 7:13) But what he offered was a unique solution. What Christ had in mind was, not a simple reform, but a complete change in the way mankind’s affairs are governed. This change will be put into effect by the heavenly Kingdom introduced by the Creator of mankind, Jehovah God, and administered by Jesus Christ as King. This will be discussed in the next article.

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/pc/r1/lp-e/1200276808/0/0

 

Social reform is partisan politics.  The United States saw that in the 60s and 70s with the reforms promoted by Christendom's Martin Luther King Jr.  The causes that were championed by the civil rights and equal rights movements of the past are very much political even though they championed the fair and equal treatment of all people.  The same is true today.  Appeals directed at the government and government officials in regards the fair and kind treatment of immigrants, homosexuals, and the LGBTQ community is just as much partisan politics as what Dr. King engaged in over a half-century ago.  Reading the cited MSN news article reacting to Vice President Vance's statements make it crystal clear this is a political topic. 

 

It's not the place of religion or a Christian to champion any type of social reform in this system.  Our focus is on the Kingdom.  It's easy to get lost in the noise of political and social change.  When we see people beaten and downtrodden, our hearts rightly go out to them.  In our personal lives we treat everyone the way we want to be treated.  However, when religion gets involved in these reform movements, they are getting involved in partisan politics.

Edited January 28 by Shawnster

[Jwanon]

28 minutes ago, Hope said:

Why are they not worthy of mercy? 😟

 

Who is not worthy of mercy? 😞 

 

Jehovah has opened the door of salvation for everyone. That's his mercy, or underserved kindness

 

Not everyone is willing to go through that door though

Edited January 28 by Jwanon

[Hope]

1 hour ago, Shawnster said:

 

That's not the point. 

 

Everyone is worthy of mercy.  Everyone is worthy of being treated with kindness and equality.  In Jehovah's eyes all of us are created equal.  There is neither Jew nor Greek.  

 

Let's look at the Watchtower and see where the true threat to our Christian neutrality comes from in regards social injustice and reform.

 

*** w75 8/15 p. 498 par. 23 Do Not Let Yourself Be Sidetracked in the Race for Life ***
23 Sometimes social, racial and religious barriers and prejudices result in hardship and oppression for many. They often make the Christian’s race for life much more difficult. The tendency is to speak out, to fight back, to take things into one’s own hands, to demand justice. For example, a minority group may strike out for more rights. Protest marches may be organized to put pressure on the government. Boycotts may be arranged to bring pressure on merchants. Leaders among the group may appeal to the pride of their people, and by speech or by coercion they may seek the Christian’s support. What will you do if you are faced with this situation or a similar one? Again there is a need to maintain neutrality and avoid getting involved in the affairs of this world. Rest assured that Jehovah will settle accounts for any wrongs committed. “Return evil for evil to no one. Provide fine things in the sight of all men. If possible, as far as it depends upon you, be peaceable with all men. Do not avenge yourselves, beloved, but yield place to the wrath; for it is written: ‘Vengeance is mine; I will repay, says Jehovah.’”—Rom. 12:17-19.

 

24 Hence, do not let yourself be sidetracked from the race for life by the propaganda or pressure designed to cause you to compromise on your Christian neutrality. You will be criticized because of this, since the trend in Christendom today is for both the parishioners and their ministers to get involved in social causes. They have stopped waiting for God’s kingdom to bring the real remedies that are needed for man’s social problems, and they have taken sides. But they fail to recognize that no matter on what side a person may place himself in this world, he is still on the Devil’s side, if he actively supports any of the nationalistic programs and policies put forward by this system of things.
https://www.jw.org/finder?wtlocale=E&docid=1975604&srctype=wol&srcid=share&par=27

 

Was Jesus Christ a Reformer?

Some might claim that Jesus Christ was a reformer. Is that true? This question is important for anyone who wants to be a true servant of God, since that involves being a close footstep follower of Christ.—1 Peter 2:21.

 

There can be no doubt that Jesus had the ability to bring about reform. As a perfect man, he could have blazed a trail with sweeping changes and innovations. Yet, Christ did not initiate a campaign to rid the world of corrupt officials or dishonest businessmen. He did not lead street protests against injustice, although he himself was to become the innocent victim of an outrageous miscarriage of justice. At times, Jesus had “nowhere to lay down his head.” Still, he did not start a pressure group to draw attention to the needs of the homeless. “You always have the poor with you,” he explained when some expressed concern over finances. Jesus kept himself neutral in conflicts of the world.—Matthew 8:20; 20:28; 26:11; Luke 12:13, 14; John 6:14, 15; 18:36.

 

Of course, such problems as poverty, corruption, and injustice did not leave Christ unmoved. In fact, the Bible shows that he was deeply upset over the pitiful state of mankind. (Mark 1:40, 41; 6:33, 34; 8:1, 2; Luke 7:13) But what he offered was a unique solution. What Christ had in mind was, not a simple reform, but a complete change in the way mankind’s affairs are governed. This change will be put into effect by the heavenly Kingdom introduced by the Creator of mankind, Jehovah God, and administered by Jesus Christ as King. This will be discussed in the next article.

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/pc/r1/lp-e/1200276808/0/0

 

Social reform is partisan politics.  The United States saw that in the 60s and 70s with the reforms promoted by Christendom's Martin Luther King Jr.  The causes that were championed by the civil rights and equal rights movements of the past are very much political even though they championed the fair and equal treatment of all people.  The same is true today.  Appeals directed at the government and government officials in regards the fair and kind treatment of immigrants, homosexuals, and the LGBTQ community is just as much partisan politics as what Dr. King engaged in over a half-century ago.  Reading the cited MSN news article reacting to Vice President Vance's statements make it crystal clear this is a political topic. 

 

It's not the place of religion or a Christian to champion any type of social reform in this system.  Our focus is on the Kingdom.  It's easy to get lost in the noise of political and social change.  When we see people beaten and downtrodden, our hearts rightly go out to them.  In our personal lives we treat everyone the way we want to be treated.  However, when religion gets involved in these reform movements, they are getting involved in partisan politics.

 

Understood. I didn't view an appeal for mercy and kindness as a political stance - by/for anyone - but I get the point. My prayers are with any families affected, including our brothers and sisters. 

 

TBH, it was more notable to me to see how upset they became about the request.. but that's also not surprising. 

[Shawnster]

10 minutes ago, Hope said:

Understood. I didn't view an appeal for mercy and kindness as a political stance - by/for anyone - but I get the point

I keep referencing MLK because he's such a great example of this. He appealed for mercy and kindness. 

 

This goes to show how even true Christians are oppressed in this system. We see mainly the appeal to mercy and kindness, yet it's attached to the grenade of neutrality 

[just1-4all]

22 minutes ago, Shawnster said:

I keep referencing MLK because he's such a great example of this. He appealed for mercy and kindness. 

 

This goes to show how even true Christians are oppressed in this system. We see mainly the appeal to mercy and kindness, yet it's attached to the grenade of neutrality 

I find interesting that MLK and Malcolm X both had God in mind in their aims for reform/social change, but one was for peaceful 'civil disobedience' and the other was sending a message that violence could not be ruled out to effect change. X was famous for saying: "It's the ballot or the bullet"

 

Excerpt from one of Malcolm's speeches on social change using this phrase:

"This is why I say it's the ballot or the bullet. It's liberty or it's death. It's freedom for everybody or freedom for nobody."—April 12, 1964

 

https://americanradioworks.publicradio.org/features/blackspeech/mx.html#

 

He was assassinated less than a year later.

Edited January 28 by just1-4all
improved phrasing

[BLEmom]

This article is mainly about schools but also mentions it applies to other sensitive locations.  

 

Has anyone heard of any direction in case this starts happening in “places of worship”?

 

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/immigration/public-schools-undocumented-students-trump-immigration-raids-rcna189466

[LeolaRootStew]

Just now, BLEmom said:

This article is mainly about schools but also mentions it applies to other sensitive locations.  

 

Has anyone heard of any direction in case this starts happening in “places of worship”?

 

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/immigration/public-schools-undocumented-students-trump-immigration-raids-rcna189466

 

I heard they were including churches as places that can be raided for immigrants. As far as if this happens to us, we wouldn't be harboring/resisting the efforts of ICE to remove illegal aliens, so what direction would we need other than to not resist the cops who may show up?

[Sheep]

Are these ICE agents trying to arrest and deport all immigrants, regardless of whether or not they have a criminal record? Or, do the immigrants just have to be "undocumented" (whatever that means) to get arrested? What are the criteria? What's an "illegal" immigrant? (I'm not in the US, and don't really follow things that closely.)

 

I have been hearing about "collateral arrests" by these ICE agents. That is, the agents, in the course of searching for one of their targets, come across another undocumented immigrant who does not have a criminal record, and they arrest him on the fly. Or, so I hear the story. Can someone clarify please?

[LeolaRootStew]

15 minutes ago, Sheep said:

Are these ICE agents trying to arrest and deport all immigrants, regardless of whether or not they have a criminal record? Or, do the immigrants just have to be "undocumented" (whatever that means) to get arrested? What are the criteria? What's an "illegal" immigrant? (I'm not in the US, and don't really follow things that closely.)

 

I have been hearing about "collateral arrests" by these ICE agents. That is, the agents, in the course of searching for one of their targets, come across another undocumented immigrant who does not have a criminal record, and they arrest him on the fly. Or, so I hear the story. Can someone clarify please?

 

Anyone who is in the country illegally. That can include those who snuck in or who overstayed visas. A criminal record is not required to be deported.