Being Healthy - while waiting for perfect health

[Snufkin]

On 1/7/2025 at 5:50 PM, Qapla said:

Perhaps, before this thread comes unraveled and we all stress our preferred diet, we should ponder on this scripture:

 

“Stop calling defiled the things God has cleansed.”

Acts 10:15

Acknowledged. I never said that meat was defiled, but neither does the Bible say that it is "cleansed." I was simply encouraging our dear brothers and sisters to pay more attention to their health, and the most impactful way to do that is to be careful in what we eat.

[Snufkin]

On 1/7/2025 at 6:39 PM, trottigy said:

 

Technically, everything that has happened to humans happened after their sin - from having children, making tools and instruments, to farming and possibly even living in homes.

 

It is not possible to infer simply because something happened AFTER sin entered into the world that it will all be removed. One really needs a scriptural basis to infer these things and there isn't any.

 

Note: Jesus was perfect and yet wore clothes, used tools (as a carpenter), and ate meat.

I agree that those things happened after sin. But many of those things were intended by God "Be fruitful and fill the earth."

 

I have given the scriptural basis for plant-based humans, as has the Governing Body. 

 

Jesus also obeyed the law, which was later done away with. Jesus also died, which was never meant to happen.

[Snufkin]

On 1/7/2025 at 7:04 PM, Ludwika said:

At the end of the day, not commenting on any particular diet (and I like meat, but try to eat more veggies and be moderate with the amount of meat) , I wonder who of us in the new world will be able to look in the eyes of a trusting animal and slit it's throat for the table? 

And I can't imagine horrible slaughter houses existing, so it's going to need to be a personal act 😜

Not a comment on what we'll eat, just on who could bring themselves to do it. Having said that, my Dad was a farmer, so he'd probably have no problem and we could all eat at his house! 😂

 

Your advice is in line with mine - to take care of our health by eating wisely. As far as animals go - "Death will be no more." The Governing Body have consistently confirmed that humans and animals will co-exist peacefully. How can that happen when humans are still slaughtering animals by the million? Many of us have had to make uncomfortable changes to be able to worship Jehovah. And many will have to make more changes in the new world. If we love Jehovah, we will comply, trusting in him fully to know what is best for us. 

[Snufkin]

On 1/7/2025 at 7:20 PM, Myew said:

This is definitively incorrect. The majority of meat is already broken down and digested by the time it reaches the colon, as this and the previous video show (particularly with colostomy bags, and my own experiences with fiber and bowel movements...). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QOBmOWmvgXw Are you familiar with any research on ketones and how beneficial they are to our brain and overall health, of how dietary fat does not get stored as fat in the body, of how our body needs and creates more cholesterol than we take in, of how our hormones such as insulin determine how what we eat is stored or disposed of?
 

I have read the 1961 Watchtower QFR that states "on this basis are we to conclude that all animals will be vegetarian in the new world?" "if they could subsist that way during the first 1,656 years of man’s existence, why can they not return to that way of life and keep living that way during the thousand-year reign of Jesus Christ and then for eternity?" many times over the past few years. https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1961929#h=9 I do not feel that it definitively states that we will be herbviores again, but do feel that it implies that. We do not know what was in the food or the soil then that we needed that we do not have now. Still, the Governing Body has said in much more recent years that some things said in the past were incorrect. There are things that we do not know that we simply should not presume. They have insight, but they are not inspired, per their own publication. Please see 2017 Watchtower study: https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2017283#h=23:0-23:381 "The Governing Body is neither inspired nor infallible. Therefore, it can err in doctrinal matters or in organizational direction." I do believe that we should fully trust and follow their direction. Jehovah will bless that obedience and unity regardless. If something was wrong, it was never Jehovah's fault, and he has consistently used them to provide the spiritual food that is vital to everlasting life. Perhaps that direction from that article was needed at that time for some reason. Regardless, I feel that our focus now is much clearer as the light keeps getting brighter. They no longer put the focus on these types of future assumptions. They have also seen the danger in even suggesting such things as diet anymore because, sadly, some Witnesses have idolized members of the anointed or dates mentioned in articles, and in doing so have fallen away when someone was hurt or something one believed did not come to pass.

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2015925#h=22 "some well-intentioned brothers give unsolicited health recommendations. Granted, someone might simply offer general, practical suggestions. Paul did so when Timothy was experiencing stomach problems, perhaps because the local water was polluted. That, however, is quite different from trying to persuade a fellow Witness to use some herb, remedy, or diet that may not be effective or in some cases may even be harmful. At times, some have tried to persuade others with an explanation: ‘My relative had a similar disease, and he took . . . Then he got well.’ No matter how sincere the suggestion, we do well to keep in mind that there may be risks even with widely used medications and treatments."
I do appreciate that your suggestions are based upon your own experience rather than secondhand, and I agree with that approach. I have struggled for years with giving unsolicited advice many times because I hate to see my brothers and sisters in pain and want them to feel relief. In this instance, I want to provide counterpoints to some of your reasonings to help people have a more balanced, complete perspective of the matter. I apologize if in doing so I have in any way resorted to old argumentative tactics or attacking the person and not the problem, that is not what I intend to do and I want to do better. I must put forth more effort to (2 Timothy 2:23) "reject foolish and ignorant debates, knowing that they produce fights."

 

Provided that I still have my same personality then without my developmental disorders - I think that I could. I hope I might be able to become a rancher, at least for a time, using herds of animals to organically restore parts of the earth that have been ruined or desertified. I am more grateful than ever that Jehovah has given us these creatures. In such a situation, I imagine it's not unlike when a wild herbivore is sickly or older and accepts that it is its time and submits to the predators in order to allow the rest of the herd to escape. I can imagine such an animal coming to us as their master to let us know that it is their time and they are ready to return to the earth. Animals died in the Garden of Eden, Adam knew what death was and meant. The only way that they would get cleaned up and decomposed into new soil is through the cycles involving other creatures that Jehovah designed.

Thanks for your balanced and comprehensive response. You raise some good points, and I have to say that I am not advocating any diet, I simply want our brothers and sisters to be aware of the dangers of a meat and dairy saturated diet. You rightly point out that the Governing Body are not inspired. However, the quote you used refers to "doctrinal matters or in organizational direction." Stating the facts from he scriptures - that humans originally only ate vegetation - is neither doctrinal or organizational.

 

While I acknowledge some of your points on meat (some of which I do not know enough) , I do know that - anatomically - humans are herbivores. If you study the anatomy of human digestive systems, you will find that they are actually compatible with vegetation, not meat. I am not recommending a special diet - other than the one that Jehovah put us on in the first place. I am certainly not recommending any medications or therapies.   

 

I don't deny that animals may have died in Eden, but that doesn't mean they they were slaughtered or consumed - especially by humans.

 

Please don't worry about causing me offense. Your comments are among the more reasonable and constructive I have had on this site. Some people get very angry when their pleasure habits are threatened.

 

I hope you have a good day, and I wish you the "peace of God that surpasses all understanding."

[Snufkin]

On 1/7/2025 at 7:48 PM, Myew said:

I disagree and believe that this only applies to ones who have been raised on a more traditional diet incorporating meat and necessary nutrition past the point of full development and puberty. After that, the deficiencies moreso affect your brain and mental health as opposed to physical. Please see:
https://www.thehealthyhomeeconomist.com/baby-breastfed-by-vegan-mother-dies/ (sensitivity warning, depiction of breastfeeding)
https://apnews.com/article/health-crime-florida-sentencing-cb79b4b47da608f42c6f8f7a94396e5b

I know many people who have mental disorders, some of them vegetarian, the majority meat-eaters. A connection between mental health decline and plant-based diets cannot be confirmed, unless the researchers have an agenda - due to working for the meat industry (which I have found true several times). As I stated before, I have always been given a complete bill of good health by my GP, with no deficiencies. How do we explain that, if I am a vegan?

[Snufkin]

On 1/7/2025 at 10:41 PM, Amygdala said:

Interesting read, brother Steve. I am not sure if you know, but the outline for the yearly pioneer meeting this year with the elders was focused on proper nutrition including proper food choices, getting enough sleep, and managing stress. We are what we eat, and when we take care of our bodies, we will be treated back well, manage stress, and even heal our bodies.

 

But none of us should push our opinions about what constitutes healthy, because for some healthy may mean no meat, for others only meat, for another no gluten, or no sugar, no carbs, no alcohol, no coffee, having a daily coffee, etc., etc. We each only have that personal responsibility to check what works for ourselves personally. How our own bodies react in a positive way are a testament in itself. But to push our opinions about what a person should or shouldn’t do will only cause divisions, if we are not careful. 

 

Being healthy is a concern to Jehovah. Our bodies are precious to Him, and we should try and view it in the same way, too. If we can‘t go out in the ministry due to poor eating choices, then that is something to address, and a person would be best to consult with a professional nutritionist or doctor who can help, and who can work with our lifestyle or genetic or family history. But that is up to that person who needs to decide for himself.

 

Satan is doing everything he can to cause disunity in the congregation today. He wants us to be critical of our brothers, show no patience for people of different abilities or limitations, and looks for opportunities to see if a person has a tendency to judge others. He will make sure to zero in on that weakness.

 

But just as we had from our recent WT, some are going through doubts about their worth to Jehovah, no matter how well-intentioned a person is trying to be, we do not want to add to a person‘s stress  by becoming too opinionated or forcing others to do more than they can at the moment. Like the Bible reading this week, Ps. 130:5 said to keep focusing ourselves on Jehovah, and vs.6 says we wait patiently for Him to set matters straight. Besides who would have thought that a yearly pioneer meeting would all be about food choices, diet and stress?

 

 

 

 

Thank you for your reasoned and balanced response. I absolutely agree with you about pushing opinions - particularly if it causes distress or concern. I did not intend any offense by my article. I only sought to encourage a healthy lifestyle.

 

Having said that, many responders on here are ignoring what are facts - namely that humans were plant-based consumers in Eden, and up until the flood, and that the Governing Body have indicated - several times - that humans will almost certainly revert back to that state in the new world. It seems that some people are angry just considering those facts, and refuse to acknowledge them - because they love eating meat.

 

I do regret that I published the article because I have been overwhelmed by criticism and resentment in many responses. This has caught me by surprise because I expected a more peaceful reaction from my spiritual family. But then, we are still human - flawed, emotional, humans.

 

I hope you have a good day, and pray Jehovah's blessing on you.

[LeolaRootStew]

4 hours ago, Snufkin said:

Having said that, many responders on here are ignoring what are facts - namely that humans were plant-based consumers in Eden, and up until the flood, and that the Governing Body have indicated - several times - that humans will almost certainly revert back to that state in the new world. It seems that some people are angry just considering those facts, and refuse to acknowledge them - because they love eating meat.

 

It is commendable to care about the welfare of our Brothers and Sisters, but even if we all agreed that we will go back to a meat-less diet, Jehovah still told us it is ok to eat meat in the here-and-now. Anyone who adds their own rules on top of that is not encouraging us to follow Jehovah's direction, but their own. I think that is the underlying reason for the hostility, rather than a simple love of meat. 💜 

 

Spoiler

That being said, we should all strive to be respectful at all times.

 

[Cool.As.Ice]

Here is a straight up, definite answer from the FDS about this issue. Perhaps some of us would like to take this under (prayerful) consideration.

 

*** g97 8/8 p. 20 Is It Wrong to Eat Meat? ***
As shown in the foregoing, the question of becoming a vegetarian—or remaining one—is strictly a matter for individual decision. Because of health, economics, ecology, or compassion for animals, a person may choose to follow a vegetarian regimen. But he must recognize it as only one way of eating. He should not criticize those who choose to eat meat, just as one who eats meat should not condemn a vegetarian. Eating meat or refraining from it does not make one a better person. (Romans 14:1-17) Neither should one’s diet become the prime concern in his life. “Man must live,” Jesus said, “not on bread alone, but on every utterance coming forth through Jehovah’s mouth.”—Matthew 4:4.
https://www.jw.org/finder?wtlocale=E&docid=101997568&srctype=wol&srcid=share&par=28

[Cool.As.Ice]

There is also another interesting article that has benefited me over the years when I talk to someone about things that are strictly personal choices:

 

*** w12 10/15 p. 15 par. 12 What Kind of Spirit Do You Show? ***
12 Differences of viewpoint can become a source of irritation in the congregation—even among the overseers. The Bible’s counsel can help us in this regard: “In showing honor to one another take the lead” and, “Do not become discreet in your own eyes.” (Rom. 12:10, 16) Instead of insisting that we are right, we should acknowledge that there is often more than one acceptable way to look at a situation. If we try to see others’ point of view, we can contribute to the unity of the congregation.—Phil. 4:5.
https://www.jw.org/finder?wtlocale=E&docid=2012765&srctype=wol&srcid=share&par=20

[Doug]

On 1/7/2025 at 11:20 AM, Myew said:

 I feel that our focus now is much clearer as the light keeps getting brighter. They (GB) no longer put the focus on assumptions. They have also seen the danger in even suggesting such things anymore 

 

It's a sign of modesty, in my opinion.  They've had to clarify and adjust so many times that maybe they now feel it isn't worth "going on the record" if it isn't a topic essential to our worship and navigating through these last hours.

[Myew]

@Snufkin Thank you for the feedback. I apologize for any hostility in my comments. I don't deny that I follow plenty of carnivore and ketogenic doctors that have a bias against vegans. I have had useful habits spoiled by negative infuences from people who spend all day arguing over what is fact and what x study / research shows.
 

13 hours ago, Snufkin said:

As I stated before, I have always been given a complete bill of good health by my GP, with no deficiencies. How do we explain that, if I am a vegan?

I certainly agree that many people have benefited from vegan diets, especially when they have switched from standard western diets with processed foods and refined carbohydrates. They do feel much better, sometimes for many years with no notices or indications if they were already fairly healthy. Some issues, if one is older, are just attributed to 'old age'. However, I have also noted that many times, it shows up in subsequent generations, as pregnancy has the highest nutritional requirements of anything a human can do. I have never heard of any recorded traditional culture post-flood that was strictly vegan, likely because it was not sustainable. Pregnant women were always given the fattiest animal dishes for the health of the mother and the baby. Especially among the younger generations or subsequent generations of vegans, they appear to be much more quickly susceptible to nutritional deficiencies from meatless diets. In my case, I saw my sister's autoimmunity and Multiple Sclerosis advanced rapidly and severely after she switched to a vegan diet to the point in her late teens that her brain didn't have the raw materials like cholesterol and ketones needed to repair the holes in her myelin sheaths, and she lost all brain functioning within years. She was going to die, but my brother in law was able to keep her alive and take care of her bedridden for the following 10 years as he put her on a ketogenic diet which greatly improved her health, and she even regained a very small amount of memory and ability to reply one word answers to very simple questions again for a short time before she caught an illness and died. I have also seen ones who had to stop being vegan after several years due to those nutritional deficiencies symptoms, but reversing all of those symptoms after switching to meat based, even carnivore diets.
 

13 hours ago, Snufkin said:

I know many people who have mental disorders, some of them vegetarian, the majority meat-eaters. A connection between mental health decline and plant-based diets cannot be confirmed, unless the researchers have an agenda - due to working for the meat industry (which I have found true several times).

 

There is a very balanced video published recently from a mental health professional discussing with doctors the recent research showing a ketogenic metabolic therapy diet completely reversing several severe mental health disorders. I used to suffer severely from many of these illnesses myself when I was eating a low meat low fat high carb western diet. I only began learning about all of this when I learned about how my sister improved and was reversing some of her autoimmune/physical illnesses despite being brain dead. Many have found animal based ketogenic diets to make them feel the best. I used to have a fairly omnivoric ketogenic diet where I ate a great deal of plants and plant/animal fats and meat, but still had plenty of gut issues. I found things improved somewhat after I got rib of all fermentable carbs and fiber.
 

13 hours ago, Snufkin said:

I do know that - anatomically - humans are herbivores. If you study the anatomy of human digestive systems, you will find that they are actually compatible with vegetation, not meat.

 

This is something that I am struggling to comprehend, as I haven't read anything to indicate this. Plenty of researchers love to compare humans to apes, and when comparing the guts, humans have much higher acidicity levels in our stomachs. Our pH can go as low as 1, which is common among carnivores and predators, whereas most herbivores are in the range of 3-7. Also, our small intestines are much longer and our colons are much shorter. Most monkeys and apes have longer colons because they get much more of their nutrition from grazing, fermenting and passing gas all day. Our stomachs can quickly and efficiently break down protein and fats into usable nutrition, and our body contains and releases specific enzymes from the pancreas to break down protein and fat which are not found in other herbivores. So I don't understand statements such as this.
https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Stomach-pH-as-a-function-of-animal-species-A-pH-of-7-is-neutral-Data-for-chimpanzees_fig1_339359018

Edited 2 hours ago by Myew