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We absolutely do know. The Bible is pretty clear. (Romans 6:23) 23 For the wages sin pays is death. https://www.jw.org/finder?wtlocale=E&pub=nwtsty&srctype=wol&bible=45006023&srcid=share (James 1:15) sin, when it has been carried out, brings forth death. https://www.jw.org/finder?wtlocale=E&pub=nwtsty&srctype=wol&bible=59001015&srcid=share Sin results in death. Everyone that sins is subject to death. Challenging Jehovah's sovereignty is a sin. For challenging Jehovah, Satan will die. He must die. Likewise, we know that Jehovah would never allow Satan to go and seduce a separate alien species as if Satan had free reign to corrupt the entire universe while he awaits execution. Jehovah's word is clear. If you know your bull is in the habit of hurting people and you don't restrain it, then you are responsible. After the first act of rebellion, Jehovah's justice forces him to restrain Satan so he does not hurt anyone innocent.

No. I'm saying that I have no idea what he would do in that circumstance because I'm not sure what Satan did would be a death sentence if there were no fallout from it. Would he be banished? I don't know. Executed? I don't know. I understand he has earned a death sentence in real life because his actions killed Adam and Eve, but if they had said no there would be no casualties - so what would the punishment have been? I don't know. Agree. Their theoretical test of loyalty doesn't affect our planet (if they passed it). I still don't believe there is other life out there, but I can't use our current circumstances as proof of anything. If another planet had: Failed the test: the issue of sovereignty would have been adjudicated already and Adam and Eve would have been informed of this. No need for an earthly court case. Passed the test: Satan may or may not be executed or banished. We don't know. He may have been allowed to travel the universe and tempt Adam and Eve because choosing Jehovah's rulership does not prove Satan can't do it better (in the eyes of all creation). So, if there is another planet full of people out there, they would have to be faithful or they sinned after Adam and Eve did. Why? Because the issue of sovereignty is being played out here, not there. Jesus died here, not there. So it's possible they exist, but our current circumstances do not prove it one way or another.

I just wanted to make a quick comment for those who thought we wouldn't die after the GT started. In order for that to happen Jehovah would have to stop our aging process and our sicknesses. That does not seem reasonable to expect. The Bible tells us at Matthew 24:13 that "the one who has endured to the end (the end of their own life on earth or Armageddon, whichever comes first) will be saved." Now as far as the actual day of Armageddon goes - it does seem reasonable to believe that none of Jehovah's faithful servants will die on that day - what kind of Savior/Deliverer would Jehovah look like if he allowed even one of us to die during that war? It would look like he was unable to protect his own people during his own war. That is why the Bible also tells us to "life our heads" for our deliverance is near. We will not be afraid of anything bad happening to us on that Great and Fear Inspiring Day!

I think we are saying the same thing and not saying the same thing. You seem to be suggesting that if Adam and Eve had not eaten the fruit, that mankind would continue to be tested until Jehovah allowed Satan an opportunity to rule the world and fail. I disagree. You are using your logic to support the idea that another intelligent physical creation with freewill could exist and their tests of loyalty wouldn't prevent humans on earth being tested, so the events on earth don't rule out the possibility of intelligent physical creation with freewill on other planets. I disagree. We will have to agree to disagree. Take care...

It applies to everyone, not because everyone is the same, but because the same God who said humans can't rule themselves was just proven right through thousands of years of testing. So when Jehovah says the same thing about all his other creations, we know we can take him at his word - it doesn't need to be proven again. As I stated previously, I don't think what is happening here proves one way or another whether there is life on other planets.

...So I agree with Jehovah? Satan didn't say God's rulership was bad, just that it could be better (he was withholding something from them). The implication being that Satan could do better. The only way to prove that is to try. Makes sense to me.

For those of you who use Obsidian for your Bible research/notes, I would like to present a free community plugin called tra.VER:ture (or just traVERture). This is a scripture reference parser and formatter/converter/translator, which lets you create interactive links to the NWT Bible with verse previews, or parse entire documents into a searchable, sortable sidebar table. You can check it out here: https://community.obsidian.md/plugins/traverture Official repo: https://github.com/erykjj/traverture Install manually or via `Community plugins > Browse` in Obsidian settings.

No. I was not saying. I was asking if that was what you saying. I was seeking clarification. Well, the topic was about extra terrestrials. And that's the ultimate point as to whether what the Bible describes applies to everyone, including these ETs, or if it only applies to humans. Some in this topic have stated the Bible, since it is only concerned with the human condition, cannot be used to disprove intelligent life on other planets. So, yes. Working with your analogy in relation to the topic, we must treat each group of humanity as distinct and separate groups instead of all coming from the same origin because, since this topic is about alien life, by definition those aliens would be separate and distinct from humans. That's the ultimate point of this discussion, whether such hypothetical aliens could or could not be used as witnesses to make a reply to Satan's challenge. I will respect your conclusion the answer is out of your reach.

Hmm. This is a thought provoking subject. Remembering that Satan is a liar, when he said to Eve that she definitely would not die if she ate the fruit; he didn't say that because he believed that she would not die; he was telling a lie. But he was trying to seize power. Most humans have let him. This weeks watchtower Maintain the Right view of Adversity paragraph 3 made a good point:" If Jehovah were to fix all problems now, it could seem as if he was helping Satan run the world." Jehovah has gone to great lengths to provide a way of saving Adam and Eve's imperfect descendants, by providing the ransom. Jehovah knows what is true and he doesn't have to prove it for himself. He is kindly showing us that he is consistent and tells the truth. We can have confidence in Jehovah. 1 Corinthians 4 verse 9 says that we have become a theatrical spectacle to the World and to angels and to men. We can pray to Jehovah to help us to be loyal to him. We can all see that Jehovah's way is best, and the opportunity is still open for others to see as well.

Hi friends, Some years ago I found a video from an Encouraging Gathering on YouTube, where a brother was singing in the style of George Benson (guitar) and the lyrics were something like: "Let's be happy my sisters, Let's be happy my brothers, We're living in the New World..." If someone has an idea about it... it would be so nice! Thansk in advance and much love!

I don't know why but the first thing that came to mind was someone counting their service time because they have this ad up 🤣 Like the jokes about someone counting time with a tract on the windshield of their car

What is your "feed at work"? Is it a Google News view? Because its an algorithm with a selection of public news sources based on your personal profile (browse habits + everything google has about you). Or some other platform?

As my tool jwsync.org has the share notes feature where you select certain tags or certain dates, etc. And export it into a json file and then someone can take the adjacent file and it will add just those notes to there backup.... I wonder if there's a way to extract all the Strong's references and make them as specific notes per verse... And create a json file with my site and share that... Might be worth looking into

I think where our opinions differ is that you think Satan needed an opportunity to prove he was right. The difference is that he didn't claim to be right, he claimed Jehovah was wrong. Big difference. Jehovah gave him an opportunity to prove his point.

...The rest? -you saying all ethnicities/species need to sin to prove Satan a liar -you saying Adam and Eve's sin was inevitable by conflating an inability to prove Satan wrong with a requirement that they sin -you saying that proving Satan is wrong about humans means it doesn't apply to everyone Imagine Jehovah made a lavish meal for Adam and Eve and Satan claimed he could make an even better one. They say no and he never makes it. How long do Adam and Eve have to say no before it proves Satan can't cook? Never. You can't prove someone can't cook if you never let them cook. Their loyalty has nothing to do with Satan's ability to rule. That's a category error. What would Satan even taunt Jehovah with: "Hey, I think I can do better, but no one wants to follow me"? That's above my pay-grade.

Sounds like an easy way for an apostate to slip an ad to someone unexpectedly.

So looks like I understood 2 out of 3 parts. What did I misunderstand? So, at what point could Adam and Eve's continued loyalty be sufficient to provide an answer to Satan's challenge? Unless proven, how can Jehovah make a reply to the one taunting him? (Job 2:4) 4 But Satan answered Jehovah: “Skin for skin. A man will give everything that he has for his life. While stated in Job, this is the crux of the entire account at Genesis chapter 3. Jehovah's creation is inherently flawed. People, even perfect people, only serve Jehovah as long as the good times roll. Take away their paradise and they will curse God. (Proverbs 27:11) 11 Be wise, my son, and make my heart rejoice, So that I can make a reply to him who taunts me. The only way Jehovah could make a reply was if humanity rebelled. Otherwise, how could Jehovah make a reply without proof?

Okay, but back to whether or not there is intelligent physical creation with freewill on other planets. I don't think the events on earth would have taken place if other intelligent physical creation with freewill exists somewhere other than earth.

It was their test of obedience. But passing an obedience test is not the same as proving Jehovah's rule is best. Their obedience doesn't touch that. And how would Jehovah "allow" Satan an opportunity to prove he could rule better if no one decided to follow him? Jehovah is not obligated to provide followers to any would-be rivals. I don't know what Jehovah would have allowed Satan to do if they had rejected his temptation. He lied to them, but is that a death sentence? Is calling Jehovah a liar a death sentence? I don't know. He obviously deserves to die now because he has caused so many deaths, but that would not be true if they had rejected his temptation. I am unsure how Jehovah would have handled it.

I thought whether or not they ate the fruit was their test of obedience. Are you saying that if they didn't eat the fruit that Jehovah would allow mankind to be continually tested? He would allow Satan or any creation to challenge his right to rule and give them the opportunity to prove if they were right? If mankind willingly accepted Jehovah's sovereignty, why would he subject mankind or any creation to that?

Yes. Emphasis on the word "prove". Humans could say they don't think Satan would rule as well as Jehovah, and have a variety of reasons, but without a visible alternative to point to, it's just a theory. If there were sufficient proof in the Garden of Eden that Jehovah's rule is best, we wouldn't have needed thousands of years to show it. "I mean, if the only way to prove water is healthier than soda is to allow a group of people to drink soda and develop health problems, then in order to prove water is healthier is that these groups of people must drink soda. No amount of study, research, or meditation will prove soda is unhealthy." 1) How could Adam prove that soda is bad for you? Where would he do this research? What would he meditate on? 2) Unlike the health effects of soda, universal sovereignty can't be proven in a laboratory. I don't know how Jehovah could prove his rulership is best without someone attempting another way. Can you give me an example of how this could be proven if Satan's temptation had failed? "So if drinking soda is equal to sin and rebellion, then Adam's sin and rebellion was inevitable. It had to happen. Satan could never be proved a liar." That does not follow. Not having the ability to prove someone is lying does not obligate you to do as they say. They could have refused his offer without providing any proof at all. "To take this a step further and apply it to multiple different physical intelligences (let's call them Martians), then they all must go through this process. This would be like each separate group of humans must perform their own soda drinking so that each group can prove soda is unhealthy for everyone. The accusation could be raised that soda drinking is only unhealthy for Polynesians or white people. Brown or tan skinned people or people who live in Scandinavia can drink soda and be just fine. One test cannot apply to all types of people and the only way to test the situation is through deliberate action." Jehovah told Adam and Eve to not eat from the tree. He did not say it only applied to certain ethnicities, so everyone who would later be born would have the same direction. In order for anyone to reason as you suggest, they must start with the premise that Jehovah lied. If they are doing that, they are siding with Satan, not conducting some neutral study on the effects of soda. To test the soda is to call Jehovah a liar. Any other species that might exist in the universe would be calling Jehovah a liar if they drank the soda. And again, we are not obligated to "prove" that soda is unhealthy. Jehovah said don't eat the fruit; he did not say we need to prove that it's a bad idea to eat the fruit. "The only way to prove Jehovah's way of rulership is the best way of rulership is to go through sin, imperfection and death." Yes, otherwise it would just be belief. Jehovah is the only one who understood without proof that his rulership is best. "And this only proves Jehovah's way of ruling is best only for humans. The Martians or Vulcans, or Wookies might actually be better off without Jehovah's rule. Each one of those separate physical intelligence must go through this same process because that's the only way. It's not possible to have one case study with one species apply to all physical creation." In this scenario, Jehovah has stated that his rule is best for all intelligent Creation. By proving Satan a liar for human rulership it would prove Satan couldn't be trusted at all and Jehovah can. Jehovah would not need to prove himself again. "That's how I understand your point of view. Is that correct?" Nope

This ad is made by a third party. In fact, you can create your own ads nowadays and spread it. I can even create my own right now and spread it. So probably because of JW Pressroom, this random individual probably thought it would be cool to create an ad online and attached the jw.org link in it. The organization is less likely to do this because they will have to pay for this ad to be shown and they are not cheap depending on how big the scope and spread of the ad. Our public ministry already handles the spread of good news so we do not need to spend money on something that is costly and isn't beneficial.

Perhaps I do not understand. Based on your illustration, it sounds like humans (or any physical intelligence) must sin or needed to sin in order to prove Satan's accusation false. I mean, if the only way to prove water is healthier than soda is to allow a group of people to drink soda and develop health problems, then in order to prove water is healthier is that these groups of people must drink soda. No amount of study, research, or meditation will prove soda is unhealthy. So if drinking soda is equal to sin and rebellion, then Adam's sin and rebellion was inevitable. It had to happen. Satan could never be proved a liar. To take this a step further and apply it to multiple different physical intelligences (let's call them Martians), then they all must go through this process. This would be like each separate group of humans must perform their own soda drinking so that each group can prove soda is unhealthy for everyone. The accusation could be raised that soda drinking is only unhealthy for Polynesians or white people. Brown or tan skinned people or people who live in Scandinavia can drink soda and be just fine. One test cannot apply to all types of people and the only way to test the situation is through deliberate action. The only way to prove Jehovah's way of rulership is the best way of rulership is to go through sin, imperfection and death. And this only proves Jehovah's way of ruling is best only for humans. The Martians or Vulcans, or Wookies might actually be better off without Jehovah's rule. Each one of those separate physical intelligence must go through this same process because that's the only way. It's not possible to have one case study with one species apply to all physical creation. That's how I understand your point of view. Is that correct? What am I missing?

Isn't it? Do all y'all think it isn't? 🤔

Until it was proven one way or the other.