Shooting in Paris

[Tbs77]

Guns are not bad, many brothers and sisters have them. I am so tired of hearing brothers and sisters say that Jehovah's Witnesses don't have them...it's just not even close to being true!!!

Understood, however we have to be be patient with those that don't understand.

Principles:

http://m.wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2005808

[Trina]

Who said that here?

I do question this, though. Would brothers and sisters have guns on their persons while eating in a restaurant, or at a music concert? I really don't know what the American brothers' answer to this is.

I can understand protection against wild animals, or for hunting, if that is your choice of activity, but for everyday carrying?

I guess it depends on what these brothers and sisters were doing prior to having a meal...maybe they came from hunting or working in the field and needed one. And this is the reason I brought it up, just because they are brothers and sisters doesn't mean they would not have a gun in all kinds of situations when we think that way we are judging our brothers and sisters immediately without any knowledge of their situation. Jehovah's Witnesses can have weapons if they need them and none of us should assume they shouldn't.

[Hope]

Well, my conscience didn't allow me to put the French flag on my profile pic. I thought that would be the same as raising the French flag out on my window... There are other ways to show we are saddened for all the killing happening in the world (And I don't mean just this massacre) without Usain an idolatry symbol....

Besides I would have to be changing the pic everyday...

Ro 8:22For we know that all creation keeps on groaning together and being in pain together until now.

 

I never realized that our view of national flags/symbols were conscience issues.  I thought it was pretty clear where we, as Witnesses, stand regarding these things.

 

I see that I've been mistaken...

 

And the gun thing -- that's very American.  I think they're pretty much abhorrent apart from hunting, but it's part and parcel of American culture.  Where Witnesses stand on that issue is, I suppose, another conscience issue.  I think they're grotesque.  

Edited November 16, 2015 by Hope

[Tbs77]

I never realized that our view of national flags/symbols were conscience issues. I thought it was pretty clear where we, as Witnesses, stand regarding these things.

I see that I've been mistaken...

And the gun thing -- that's very American. I think they're pretty much abhorrent apart from hunting, but it's part and parcel of American culture. Where Witnesses stand on that issue is, I suppose, another conscience issue. I think they're grotesque.

Don't feel sad.

http://m.wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2002685?q=national+symbols&p=par

[Foxes53]

See W 83 07/15 pages 24-26...

It discusses how those who used guns for protection against humans or in employment would be viewed by the congregation..

Remember how Jesus reacted to use of a sword by Peter. 

[trottigy]

I never realized that our view of national flags/symbols were conscience issues.  I thought it was pretty clear where we, as Witnesses, stand regarding these things.

 

I see that I've been mistaken...

 

And the gun thing -- that's very American.  I think they're pretty much abhorrent apart from hunting, but it's part and parcel of American culture.  Where Witnesses stand on that issue is, I suppose, another conscience issue.  I think they're grotesque.  

 

Idolatry is NOT a conscience matter. It is just WRONG for a Christian to be involved in idolatry in ANY WAY!!!

 

Flags are idolatrous symbols of the countries they represent. To intentionally display one would be the same as committing idolatry.

 

Now, if you had one on a uniform you wore for work as part of their logo - this would get you into the grey area of "conscience" - especially if you could not ask to wear something different. BUT to INTENTIONALLY adopt this idolatrous symbol in a show of "solidarity"     HOW DISGUSTING!!!! This is just spitting in Jehovah's face!

[trottigy]

Don't feel sad.

http://m.wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2002685?q=national+symbols&p=par

 

QUOTE from there:

 

 

The Scriptures clearly state: “Salvation belongs to Jehovah.” (Psalm 3:8) Salvation is not to be ascribed to human institutions or their symbols. The apostle Paul admonished fellow Christians: “My beloved ones, flee from idolatry.” (1 Corinthians 10:14) The early Christians did not participate in acts of worship of the State. In the book Those About to Die, Daniel P. Mannix observes: “Christians refused to . . . sacrifice to the [Roman] emperor’s genius—roughly equivalent today to refusing to salute the flag.” So it is with true Christians today. In order to render Jehovah exclusive devotion, they refrain from saluting the flag of any nation. By doing so, they put God first while maintaining respect for governments and their rulers. Indeed, they recognize their responsibility to be in subjection to the governmental “superior authorities.” (Romans 13:1-7) 

[Trina]

I want to clarify that the brothers and sisters with guns are not the same as those who keep them for employment, personal protection against humans, or to enforce humans to do something. The weapons I'm speaking of are only those used basically in more country settings (not that they aren't used by those in cities) and used to hunt and protect against wild animals as another brother brought out and they are very experienced usually being extensively trained as young people on safety. Families that hunt usually do so to provide food for the year and I know several that would hunt for families that were low income and provide them with enough food to last the whole year having Native American family means you respect and use everything you can, It's for need and it is used in a respectful way not the way worldly people view or use them.

I'm pretty sure that those that can hunt will be in high demand when the GT comes if it gets so bad that we are needing food...

[trottigy]

Think of what some of our brothers and sisters in times past went through as they would NOT honor these idolatrous images!!!

 

 

 

My Tests Begin

 

A few weeks later, I was called up for work service but soon learned that the main activity was military training. I explained that I would not serve in the army but would do other work. However, when I refused to sing Nazi fighting songs, the officers became infuriated.

 

The next morning I appeared in civilian clothes rather than in the army uniform we had been issued. The officer in charge said he had no alternative but to put me in the dungeon. There I subsisted on bread and water. Later I was told there would be a flag-saluting ceremony, and I was warned that refusal to participate would result in my being shot.

 

On the training grounds were 300 recruits as well as military officers. I was commanded to walk by the officers and the swastika flag and give the Hitler salute. Drawing spiritual strength from the Bible account of the three Hebrews, I simply said, “Guten Tag” (Good day), as I passed. (Daniel 3:1-30) I was ordered to march past again. This time I didn’t say anything, only smiled.

 

When four officers led me back to the dungeon, they told me they were trembling because they expected that I would be shot. “How is it possible,” they asked, “that you were smiling and we were so nervous?” They said that they wished they had my courage.

 

A few days later, Dr. Almendinger, a high-ranking officer from Hitler’s headquarters in Berlin, arrived in the camp. I was called before him. He explained that the laws had become much tougher. “You are not aware at all of what you are in for,” he said.

 

“Oh, yes, I am,” I replied. “My father was beheaded for the same reason only a few weeks ago.” He was stunned and fell silent.

 

Later another high-ranking official from Berlin arrived, and further attempts were made to change my mind. After hearing why I would not break God’s laws, he took my hand and, with tears streaming down his face, said: “I want to save your life!” All the officers looking on were very moved. I was then led back to the dungeon where I spent 33 days altogether.

 

 

Can you imagine this brother displaying a SWASTIKA at his home? HOW could someone do this with a flag of ANY country!!!!  

Edited November 16, 2015 by trottigy

[GrumpysWife]

@Catrina,I'm pretty sure that those that can hunt will be in high demand when the GT comes if it gets so bad that we are needing food...

That may be true, but I really think we won't be hunting etc, we will be needing to rely on Jehovah to take care of us, otherwise we would be saving up food in bunkers. IMO

[Trina]

I think the illustration of the 10 virgins shows us that we also must do our part. Remember Jesus had the apostle hunt the fish and multiplied it and the bread and provided it for the hungry crowds...Jehovah can use anyone he chooses. Also, think about the food you purchase in the markets, you do realize that they were killed by someone for the market right? How do you think that happened? Yes, they use guns. So yes, we rely on Jehovah but I promise no one will complain if one of their brothers and sisters provide a meal for the entire congregation when times get tough. In fact I'm sure they will be appreciative. We have no idea of what will happen but Jehovah will use all types of people to take care of us when he wants to, including those who can hunt.

[Trina]

Bunkers are not safe, they will probably be looted if it gets that bad. It's just not common sense to have bunkers when the world is so violent. We have been told that we may have to go elsewhere too, so then we would have no way of using a bunker anyway...but hunting when necessary is a very possible need. By the way, there are other weapons besides guns.

I see that Jehovah is wise, way more than we humans are and he has not said it is wrong to use them he just gives guidelines on how we should be viewing and using them.

[SUNRAY]

I just saw this on the news..praying for our friends in Paris!

ailles (France) (AFP) - President Francois Hollande said Monday France would step up the battle against the Islamic State (IS) group in Syria in the wake of Paris attacks he dubbed "acts of war".

Hollande told an exceptional meeting of both houses of parliament he would meet US President Barack Obama and Russia's Vladimir Putin in the coming days and called for a UN Security Council meeting over the fight against IS jihadists.

A grave Hollande said the attacks in the French capital that killed 129 people as they enjoyed a Friday night out in bars, restaurants, a concert hall and the national stadium, "were acts of war".

They "were decided and planned in Syria, prepared and organised in Belgium and perpetrated on our soil with French complicity", he said.

In response, France would "intensify" operations in Syria, Hollande said a day after French jets pounded IS targets in the group's Syrian stronghold of Raqa, its first military response to the Paris carnage.

"We will continue the strikes in the weeks to come," Hollande told lawmakers.

In the fight against the extremists, Hollande said he wanted increased international assistance.

"I will meet in the coming days with US President Obama and President Putin," he said.

Turning to measures within France, he said he would ask parliament to consider extending a state of emergency by three months.

[retroHelen]

It was announced on our TV that one of the main terrorist suspect who helped organise the attacks, but not actually present at the attacks on the day has escaped any surveillance  and is 'at large' and is implicated in 30 attacks on churches, so now I can understand why the French Government (and the Bethel) have felt it necessary to  declare a state of emergency over an undisclosed period of time and have all places of worship closed.

 

Known meeting places for many people regarded as infidel or apostate by these extreme Islamists will be a target. UK news has reminded everyone here that the current level for a terrrorist attack is likely and severe and that Secret Services at have foiled 7 attacks in the last few months  and recruited 2000 more persons into the intelligence service.

 

https://www.mi5.gov.uk/home/the-threats/terrorism/threat-levels.html

 

They were discussing/debating on the radio among the politicians and journalists - as to whether UK would get involved in the bombings in Syria - something the government here has been reluctant to do. Comments such as violence only begets revenge and more violence. Mistakes of governments in the Middle East and North Africa - where they interfered with various countries to enact 'regime change' had only resulted in more chaos and violence spreading out as hatred increased against the attackers. Then the opposite views of showing the enemy that certain countries will not be bullied without consequences. Then more arguments that not bombing ISIS strongholds in Syria could keep the badness, to some extent, there and encouraging supporters there and therefore less on streets in Europe. Other arguments were of how can bombing and shoring up borders solve and issue of ideology? Killing 'martyrs of that cause' only breeds more. Then they pointed out how difficult it is to get  moderate religious leaders of Islam to shun the followers of the extreme view when they don't seem to have a way of excommunicating people with bad views or are fearful of the extremists among themselves. 

 

Observation - Floundering about fearful and not having a workable answer.

 

The final views were what we know they might come to - Trying to get the World's leaders on one side against religious extremism and using the United Nations to focus them on this:

http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=52403#.VkoM_9LhDDc

 

In the meantime the UK Prime Minister was today at a G20 meeting in Turkey, working on Russian Mr Putin regarding his bombing in Syria and not propping up Syria's present government while the rest of the UK had a minute's silence for the dead at 11 am this Monday morning. 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/wires/pa/article-3320038/David-Cameron-urge-Vladimir-Putin-join-fight-against-IS-death-cult.html

[Miss Bea]

What planet is Donald Trump from? Or living on?

He says the problem in Paris would have been much smaller if the citizens had carried guns!

It is scary that someone like him could end up in a real position of power.

You see that in England, how'd you like to be here and look at the possibility of one of these individuals being in charge? To me, it is almost like a black comedy. Except it is real.

[Hope]

Idolatry is NOT a conscience matter. It is just WRONG for a Christian to be involved in idolatry in ANY WAY!!!

 

Flags are idolatrous symbols of the countries they represent. To intentionally display one would be the same as committing idolatry.

 

Now, if you had one on a uniform you wore for work as part of their logo - this would get you into the grey area of "conscience" - especially if you could not ask to wear something different. BUT to INTENTIONALLY adopt this idolatrous symbol in a show of "solidarity"     HOW DISGUSTING!!!! This is just spitting in Jehovah's face!

 

I agree 100%.  Just that a young brother in my congregation seems to think it's just "colors.. how about sideways?  No, that's the Netherlands flag"... He's yet to remove it from his profile and evidently there are other Witnesses out there who feel such patriotic solidarity, as well.  And there are those who haven't done that but insist it's a conscience matter.

 

It will be interesting if a war is declared.  Surely, displaying a nation's flag indicates whose side your on... I wouldn't want to be caught out like that...

[Miss Bea]

Now, let me see, is this the same image that the Globitis, (Ithink that is the right name) issue went to the Supreme Court, to fight the fact we would have no part in worshipping?

[Adelin]

Think of what some of our brothers and sisters in times past went through as they would NOT honor these idolatrous images!!!

 

Can you imagine this brother displaying a SWASTIKA at his home? HOW could someone do this with a flag of ANY country!!!!  

was it in Argentina that every KH displayed the flag in a specific day?

[ChocoBro]

It will be interesting if a war is declared.  Surely, displaying a nation's flag indicates whose side your on... I wouldn't want to be caught out like that...

 

Jackpot.

 

 

See W 83 07/15 pages 24-26...

It discusses how those who used guns for protection against humans or in employment would be viewed by the congregation..

Remember how Jesus reacted to use of a sword by Peter. 

 

 

Don't really know if that scripture directly would apply to self-defense in an every day situation or extreme situation such as Paris last Friday. I was always under the impression that it referred more to a Christian's subjection to authority even under the most adverse conditions and unto death. There are a large number of so-called "Christians" in the United States just waiting for the day when they can pack out their guns and ammo to fight the government and make it "a nation under God" again. The kind of people that will possibly even wage war against the "beast" during the last days.

 

I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that a sister has the right to defend herself against rape with all means available, something like that. The Watchtower you quoted refers to a situation where you are being held up for material possessions, it does not refer to a situation where somebody is actively trying to punch your teeth out or stab you for the mere sake of seeing you bleed.

Edited November 16, 2015 by ChocoBro

[And_Ray]

was it in Argentina that every KH displayed the flag in a specific day?

I think it was Chile. And I know someone wrote the branch for that matter and afterwards posted the reply letter from the branch here on the forum. I have it saved on my computer somewhere...

[Tbs77]

Jackpot.

Don't really know if that scripture directly would apply to self-defense in an every day situation or extreme situation such as Paris last Friday. I was always under the impression that it referred more to a Christian's subjection to authority even under the most adverse conditions and unto death. There are a large number of so-called "Christians" in the United States just waiting for the day when they can pack out their guns and ammo to fight the government and make it "a nation under God" again. The kind of people that will possibly even wage war against the "beast" during the last days.

I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that a sister has the right to defend herself against rape with all means available, something like that. The Watchtower you quoted refers to a situation where you are being held up for material possessions, it does not refer to a situation where somebody is actively trying to punch your teeth out or stab you for the mere sake of seeing you bleed.

Principles:

http://m.wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/102008204#h=1:0-22:0

[Zebra555]

You need to be careful when posting on Facebook.

Awake 10/2012 page 29

How Much Does Facebook Retain?

An Austrian law student wanted to know how much data about him had been stored by the world’s largest social network during his three-year membership, so he requested a copy. Facebook sent him a CD containing 1,222 pages of data. As reported by the German newspaper Der Tagesspiegel, the student said: “Everything had been stored—every message, every chat, including sensitive information about friends.” Included was information that he was sure he had deleted!

[Friends just call me Ross]

About this whole 'being seen with the French flag' business...

 

 

halfspanishlee, on 14 Nov 2015 - 12:51 PM, said: I see a lot of people even my family are doing the French flag on the profile picture on Facebook in support of what happened but my conscience won't allow me to do

ChocoBro, on 14 Nov 2015 - 2:06 PM, said: I saw a sister from our congregation do so today. I would leave it! Putting a man-made idol over my facebook picture to show solidarity with the victims....

 

Jehovah's view of patriotic displays:

 

 

• What is the meaning of the mark, or name, of “the wild beast”—the number 666?

This mark is mentioned at Revelation 13:16-18. The beast refers to human rulership, and the beast’s bearing “a man’s number” indicates that governments reflect the fallen human condition. The 6 plus 60 plus 600 shows that it is utterly deficient in God’s eyes. Those who bear this mark give worshipful honor to the political State, or they look to it for salvation.—4/1, pages 4-7.('Do You Remember? 04 Watchtower)

 

 

 

18 At Revelation 14:9, 10, a further aspect of ‘the hour of judgment’ is described. Another angel says: “If anyone worships the wild beast and its image, and receives a mark on his forehead or upon his hand, he will also drink of the wine of the anger of God.” Why? “The wild beast and its image” are symbols of human rulership, which does not acknowledge Jehovah’s sovereignty. Alert Christians are careful not to allow themselves to be influenced or to be marked, in either attitude or action, as being in servitude to those who refuse to acknowledge the supreme sovereignty of the true God, Jehovah. Christians know that God’s Kingdom has already been set up in heaven, that it will put an end to all human rulerships, and that it will stand forever.—Daniel 2:44. (October 1st 2005 Watchtower page 25)

 

 

 

The earth-wide preaching by Jehovah’s Witnesses is now helping to separate those choosing to support God from those who worship the wild beast. Only time will tell what may still occur before the end to cause persons to take a clear stand on one side or the other. In any event, when speaking of the approaching destruction of the wild beast and the false prophet, Revelation 19 distinctly refers to those who ‘received the mark of the wild beast.’ (Aug. 1st 79 Watchtower 'Questions from Our Readers' pages 31-32)

 

 

SEEK GOD’S HELP TO AVOID THE MARK

How can you avoid the mark of the beast? As the Bible seriously warns, it takes courage and endurance. Those who refuse it must be men of principle. It is much easier to receive the mark than to resist it, for force is used by men who wish to plant the mark on the forehead and hand of those who do not willingly receive it. It takes spiritual strength, which can be obtained only from God through a study of his Word. Jesus said: “Pay attention to what you are hearing,” and, “Pay attention to how you listen.” (Mark 4:24; Luke 8:18) Listen to what God’s Word tells you; give attention to the message that is being proclaimed regarding this very thing now by Jehovah’s witnesses. There is no middle ground. Jehovah’s witnesses know this, and they know that they must keep their spirituality at a high level by watching their course of action every day. From 1919 onward they have refused to join in this international worship of the political State and the League of Nations and its successor the United Nations. They have observed the “commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.”—Matt. 4:8-11.(June 1st, 66 Watchtower page 346)

 

 

 

Similarly, worship, obeisance, or bowing down to “the wild beast” and its “image” is linked with service, for the worshipers are identified as supporters of “the wild beast” and its “image” by having a mark either on the hand (with which one serves) or on the forehead (for all to see). Since the Devil gives the wild beast its authority, worshiping the wild beast means, in reality, worshiping or serving the Devil.—Re 13:4, 15-17; 14:9-11.  (it-2 'Worship')

 

 

Sounds like those who are still straddling the issue of Universal Sovereignty 

could really use our prayers.  

I pray that they will heed this Divine counsel:

"It takes spiritual strength, which can be obtained only from God through a study of his Word. Jesus said: “Pay attention to what you are hearing,” and, “Pay attention to how you listen.” (Mark 4:24; Luke 8:18) Listen to what God’s Word tells you; give attention to the message that is being proclaimed regarding this very thing..." (Quoted from the Watchtower article above)

 

They need to be reminded that...

There is no middle ground.

 

Don't need to be patriotic to pray for the people of Paris.  

 

 

[jayrtom]

I never realized that our view of national flags/symbols were conscience issues. I thought it was pretty clear where we, as Witnesses, stand regarding these things.

I see that I've been mistaken...

And the gun thing -- that's very American. I think they're pretty much abhorrent apart from hunting, but it's part and parcel of American culture. Where Witnesses stand on that issue is, I suppose, another conscience issue. I think they're grotesque.

Sorry but I thought you were the one advocating it ;)

I didn't state it was a conscience matter just that I decided not to go along with the trend based on my conscious

The fact is that several witnesses I know put the flag on their profile...

My first reaction was completely surprise but I also decided not to put much thought on it as I'm doing with several other things I see friends doing on Facebook that gives me the same surprise....

Enviado do meu GT-I9300 através de Tapatalk

[Trina]

The gun thing is not just American at all, it is all over the world. That is the mindset that is so irritating that Americans are the only ones, however, people without much knowledge often feel that way. Notice the international council for Game and Wildlife Comservation

Headquarters in Hungary...not America.

This is a council for hunting and preservation. The CIC has over 1500 members in 86 countries on the 5 continents. Its membership consists of states, national and international organisations, individual members, as well as sponsors, advocates of the CIC and sustainable use around the world.The CIC also has 40 National Delegations, which are responsible for coordinating activities in their respective countries.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Council_for_Game_and_Wildlife_ConservationI