Shooting at Orlando Gay Bar

[Shawnster]

My feelings are all over the place on the political ramifications of this heinous act.

 

1.  Where are all the Facebook avatar changes with "we support the US" or "we stand with Orlando" or whatever.  Paris terrorist attack, Belgium terrorist attack - they both resulted in massive Facebook support via avatar changes.  Now, I'm not saying Witnesses should get behind such political statements.  I'm noting that it is interesting the lack of such support in this instance.  Why is that?  What has made this attack different for social media?

 

2.  They're turning it into an attack on homosexuality and not an attack on the United States.  Sydney Harbor Bridge and other landmarks around the world were lit in the gay pride colors and not the red, white and blue of the United States.  This is being spun as an attack on homosexuals.  I can understand that since it was a specific location - a gay bar - and not some random location or locations that was hit.  Plus, the media report is the attack came after the shooter expressed disgust over seeing two men kissing in public.

 

3.  I'm not really seeing the connection to ISIS, despite their claims.  Sure, the shooter claimed allegiance to ISIS in the 911 call and, sure, the Islamic State claimed responsibility and support this man's actions.  It just doesn't feel lie a legitimate, planned terrorist attack like Brussels or Paris.  I can call 911 and claim I'm committing a crime in the name of ISIS but that doesn't make it true.  Likewise, ISIS can claim responsibility for any act of violence but that doesn't make it true.  Yes, this man was on a terror watch list so, maybe, he was radicalized.  Not all radicals are in contact with ISIS.  This just feels more like a hate crime perpetrated by a lone gunman than some orchestrated terror plot.

 

4.  They're turning this into pro/anti gun politics.  On the one hand, the pro gun movement is saying if more civilians at the nightclub were armed, the shooter would have been stopped sooner.  The shooter was finally stopped by men with guns.  Both statements are true - if the gunman was shot sooner, it would have ended sooner.  On the other hand, the anti-gun movement is saying if the shooter didn't have access to guns in the first place, then this wouldn't have happened.  Again, that statement is also true.  

 

5.  Yes, what happened to the Native Americans was just as horrendous, but let's not get all sanctimonious about the acts of the United States government through the centuries.  Every country has such horrible dark moments and to point fingers at the United States is to minimize the atrocities committed by other governments.  They are all equally guilty.    Further, the attacks on the Native Americans  were not viewed as crimes but as military action as a part of the so-called Indian Wars.  Military action is never listed in with crimes.  This shooting is a crime committed by a criminal and not a military action.  You'll notice 9/11 is not being listed here, either.  This is the largest mass shooting in US history.   It's not the largest act of terror.  

[Dustparticle]

one sick world

[Tbs77]

I mentioned to a coworker don't be surprise if something happens during Ramadan...June 5 through July 5! Come Lord Jesus

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Coworker is Catholic... He was freaking out this morning. He said over weekend he remembered us discussing something happening during Ramadan!

We discussed this may be the turning point in USA policy... USA may declare war on ISIS, the caliphate and/or an ideology.

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[Tbs77]

I told him Jesus said keep on the watch!

There is going to be a lot of "spin" regarding this attack... Radicalism, hate crime, mental illness, gun control.... Hold on tight! Stay to the course!

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[trottigy]

3 hours ago, Tbs77 said:

 

We discussed this may be the turning point in USA policy... USA may declare war on ISIS, the caliphate and/or an ideology.

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I thought the US WAS at war ISIS. Did they take the troops out of Iraq and Syria?

[Omoyeme]

22 hours ago, Omo_Yeme said:

It's tragic no doubt, ...but to label this crime the worst mass shooting in U.S. history?   I can't wrap my mind around that phrase.

Understanding all that I've researched about American history, the terms "massacre" and "genocide" are more profound.  But I digress.

 

 

http://m.wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/102013440 .  I had to go back and read this article.

 

It's a plain fact that "those in power" and "spin doctors" places in the media information THEY want you to believe; not necessarily what you should know.  (Everything isn't always black and white per se.)  9/11 taught me that.

 

[Tortuga]

11 minutes ago, Omo_Yeme said:

 

http://m.wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/102013440 .  I had to go back and read this article.

 

It's a plain fact that "those in power" and "spin doctors" places in the media information THEY want you to believe; not necessarily what you should know.  (Everything isn't always black and white per se.)  9/11 taught me that.

 

Look up the current definition of "mass shooting" and this incident is the largest incident that fits the current definition.

 

Edited June 13, 2016 by Tortuga

[Tbs77]

I thought the US WAS at war ISIS. Did they take the troops out of Iraq and Syria?

It's not official... Congress has to declare war.... They haven't... Yet! Must be waiting for something to be put in its heart? AUMF authorization for Use of Military Force (against terrorists not done yet) against ISIS...Afghanistan is AUMF.

http://www.newsweek.com/address-obama-vows-overcome-terrorist-threat-401796

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[Shawnster]

32 minutes ago, Tbs77 said:

It's not official... Congress has to declare war.... They haven't... Yet! Must be waiting for something to be put in its heart? AUMF authorization for Use of Military Force (against terrorists not done yet) against ISIS...Afghanistan is AUMF.

http://www.newsweek.com/address-obama-vows-overcome-terrorist-threat-401796

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It is impossible to declare war on ISIS.  They are not a sovereign state.  To declare war on ISIS would be to legitimize this terrorist organization.

 

war

wôr/

noun

 

1. 1.

   a state of armed conflict between different nations or states or different groups within a nation or state.

 

ISIS is not a nation-state, nor is it a group within a nation.  ISIS controls people in scattered parts of the Middle East.  They have no capitol or defined borders.  If the United States were to declare war on ISIS and if they were to then invade an ISIS held city in Syria, then the United States is invading Syria.  If the United States bombs an ISIS held city in Syria, then the United States is bombing Syria.  You see, the territories or cities that ISIS holds are still part of those legitimate countries in the Middle East.  Syria has not relinquished their sovereignty over ISIS held territories, nor has Iraq or any other nation in the Middle East.  In fact, some people probably believe that some of those nations are actually in league with ISIS.

 

Quote

 

During a round table discussion on how to deal with ISIS terrorists, a Special Report panel brought up the need for Congress to pass an authorization for military force.

The guests weren’t quite sure exactly who the authorization should be against.

Iraq? Syria? Libya?

Syndicated columnist Charles Krauthammer explained – you can’t pinpoint specific geographic locations when declaring war against ISIS. You simply must declare war against the group as a whole, and take the fight to wherever they may be.

 

Read more: http://www.thepoliticalinsider.com/krauthammer-congress-declare-war-isis/#ixzz4BV79AvcL   

 

I think the only legal and legitimate way to declare war on ISIS for the United Nations to be the one doing the declaring of war.  The troops would have to be UN troops and not representing one particular nation.  This way it's not the US bombing or invading another sovereign country, it's the entire UN, including that particular sovereign nation, fighting rebel insurgents and terrorists.

 

Such a situation might lead to Peace and Security.

[Tbs77]

Don't know where to put this "all things Donald Trump" or here:

From Mr. Trump

"It is an attack on the right of every single American to live in peace and safety in their own country."

https://www.donaldjtrump.com/press-releases/donald-j.-trump-addresses-terrorism-immigration-and-national-security

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[Tia]

http://www.businessinsider.com/omar-mateen-pulse-visited-orlando-shooting-2016-6

REPORTS: Orlando shooter was a regular at the gay nightclub he attacked, used multiple gay dating apps.

The man who the police say killed 49 people at a gay nightclub in Orlando early

Sunday morning had visited the club at least a dozen times before carrying out his attack,

a witness told the Orlando Sentinel on Monday.

The shooter, identified as 29-year-old Omar Mateen, may have also used several different gay dating apps,

according to reports from MSNBC and the Los Angeles Times. And a former classmate of Mateen's told The Palm Beach Post

he believed Mateen was gay and that Mateen once asked him out romantically.

Three additional witnesses confirmed that they had seen Mateen at the gay nightclub more than once before.

"Sometimes he would go over in the corner and sit and drink by himself, and other times he would get so drunk he was loud and belligerent,"

one witness, Ty Smith, told the Sentinel. "We didn't really talk to him a lot," he added. "But I remember him saying things about his dad at times.

He told us he had a wife and child."

[Alexa]

2 hours ago, CyreJay said:

http://www.businessinsider.com/omar-mateen-pulse-visited-orlando-shooting-2016-6

REPORTS: Orlando shooter was a regular at the gay nightclub he attacked, used multiple gay dating apps.

The man who the police say killed 49 people at a gay nightclub in Orlando early

Sunday morning had visited the club at least a dozen times before carrying out his attack,

a witness told the Orlando Sentinel on Monday.

The shooter, identified as 29-year-old Omar Mateen, may have also used several different gay dating apps,

according to reports from MSNBC and the Los Angeles Times. And a former classmate of Mateen's told The Palm Beach Post

he believed Mateen was gay and that Mateen once asked him out romantically.

Three additional witnesses confirmed that they had seen Mateen at the gay nightclub more than once before.

"Sometimes he would go over in the corner and sit and drink by himself, and other times he would get so drunk he was loud and belligerent,"

one witness, Ty Smith, told the Sentinel. "We didn't really talk to him a lot," he added. "But I remember him saying things about his dad at times.

He told us he had a wife and child."

Thank you  

[Tbs77]

Blog:

Texas Lt Gov. Dan Patrick Must Resign Over Anti-LGBT Tweets in Wake of Club Shooting

http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/10429290.html

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One of his tweets was Galatians 6:7

[Miss Bea]

 

Sanctimonious? Hmmm.

My flash thought was, "biggest whatever", and off I went. I just think it was a person not thinking. "Recent history" would have clarified it.

Sanctimonious means one thinks they are morally superior to others. Sometimes being a member of a tribe is hard. Other tribal members jumped on it too. I see ones around me, and the thing that is the absolute most important about them is their race. I try to avoid such. It is a hard balance. Locally, if I fully seperate myself from the tribe, even witnessing would be hard to do. So, i try to walk that fine line. Perhaps I fell off it that line her,  and for that, I am sorry. 

[Luezette]

My thoughts: He was homosexual, and didn't/couldn't handle his so-called "sexuality." Being that could have been the case, maybe he figured he'll get it out of him by killing them all (yeah but of course that don't make a bit of sense, but if you're operating with a mindset as his, nothing makes a bit of sense). And like I said, just my thoughts as in opinion. Who really knows? 

But, since that could have been the case, who knows the extent of his rage had he lived.

Edited June 14, 2016 by Luezette

[Shawnster]

23 minutes ago, Miss Bea said:

 

Sanctimonious? Hmmm.

My flash thought was, "biggest whatever", and off I went. I just think it was a person not thinking. "Recent history" would have clarified it.

Sanctimonious means one thinks they are morally superior to others. Sometimes being a member of a tribe is hard. Other tribal members jumped on it too. I see ones around me, and the thing that is the absolute most important about them is their race. I try to avoid such. It is a hard balance. Locally, if I fully seperate myself from the tribe, even witnessing would be hard to do. So, i try to walk that fine line. Perhaps I fell off it that line her,  and for that, I am sorry. 

 

Yeah, I  thought I used the wrong word.  I apologize.

 

It's such a knee-jerk reaction I see from people all around the globe.  Not just Witnesses but everyone that has a beef against the US government.  Worldly people especially have a tendency to point out the sordid, bloody history of the United States without even acknowledging their own country may have had just as bloody a past.  Case in point is Canada.  People like to point to Canada as being so egalitarian and all-embracing and even Canadians like to disparage the United States for it's unjust treatment of minorities such as the Native Americans.  Then I found out that Canada's has a similar record of unjust treatment of minorities and the Native Americans in Canada suffered brutally a couple hundred years ago.  

 

Or people like to complain about how oppressive and cruel the United States was during the slave-trade era, yet nobody seems to complain or even point out that the slaves originated from Africa by one African tribe selling their war captives to white Europeans.  

 

If you go back far enough in history, every nation comes out just as oppressive, cruel and bloody as anyone else.  

 

Sanctimonious was the wrong word choice.  Sorry.

Edited June 14, 2016 by Shawnster

[Miss Bea]

The bottom line is whatever is now going on is temporary, and will soon be a thing of the past. And the Mender of it all is our Father and His Son. We just need to wade through it, keep as spotless as we can from it, and do our assignment. 

One day, we will get to console and teach those who were victims of this madness. 

Edited June 14, 2016 by Miss Bea
Wrong words

[Luezette]

I just came in, turned on my radio, and now there's news that his second wife might face charges, and why? Because apparently she knew of his plans of the massacre and "didn't try to talk him out of it." 

Hmmm, this is beginning to sound like a soap opera to me (remember those?). The only difference is the actors are real, the plot is real, and there were no rehearsals. 

Sidebar: are there still soap operas? Or were they replaced by those stupid reality shows? 

Edited June 15, 2016 by Luezette

[hatcheckgirl]

On 14/06/2016 at 6:58 AM, Tbs77 said:

Don't know where to put this "all things Donald Trump" or here:

From Mr. Trump

"It is an attack on the right of every single American to live in peace and safety in their own country."

https://www.donaldjtrump.com/press-releases/donald-j.-trump-addresses-terrorism-immigration-and-national-security

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I couldn't read all his drivel, but he mistakenly (or conveniently) forgets to mention that just about all the other mass shootings in America (and also in Australia and other places for that matter) happened because a crazed gunman got a hold of an arsenal of guns and shot innocent people going about their own daily lives - at schools, at universities, at clubs, at malls, at airports, at tourist venues.  It's the crazy people who are disgustingly motivated by the most debased of human nature - blind hatred, jealousy, fanatical self-hero bigatory - all the satanic traits proliferating in the dregs of society. 

 

Think of past mass murderers, like Hitler for example, who had the same disposition.  It was masked under fascism then, it is hiding behind radical ultranational ideas now.  They may pledge allegiance to IS, but they are just drawn to that as a cause to propagate their hatred.  Others, such as those involved in the Columbine massacre had similar vicious hatred for fellow students and an absolute absence of conscience of what is right and wrong.  I see no difference in this latest sad massacre.  Though some muslims are radicalised and are terrorists, Trump's argument to ban them from entering US is just a distraction to what the real underlying cause is, and what the real solution to this carnage is.  We can see it as clear as day.

 

 

[Foxes53]

Any brothers/sisters in the Orlando area. How has this event affected the ministry work and the reactions of people ? Any cart witnessing in downtown Orlando ?

[hatcheckgirl]

I did a quick search on "gun control" in our forums.  Sure enough, after every single mass shooting, it is being discussed in the media, and therefore here.  Especially as people in the world think it a possible solution to the violence.  But Musky pointed out the uselessness of that argument - we need to get rid of guns in the whole planet, and we know only Jehovah can do that. 

 

Here is yet another article (updated to reflect the recent Orlando shooting) that shows some interesting stats regarding gun homicides in US versus the rest of the western world.  It makes the point quite well, I thought.  But even though you get rid of every gun, there are still those murderous ones who will still be able to get their hands on weapons to kill.  It's satanic, and that is why the world is in a mess.

 

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/06/14/upshot/compare-these-gun-death-rates-the-us-is-in-a-different-world.html

 

[Tbs77]

This investigation is revealing some bizarre stuff! Allegedly the shooter has had discipline issues since 3rd grade! Was he gay or devout Muslim or ultimate double "lifer"?

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[hatcheckgirl]

Our upcoming Awake has a well-balanced article on what does the Bible say about being gay. Especially in view of the misinformation that we are homophobic, which is further complicated by anti gay protesters who condone violence, such as what happened in Orlando.

https://www.jw.org/en/publications/magazines/awake-no4-2016-august/bible-say-about-being-gay/

 

While Jehovah’s Witnesses uphold the moral code set forth in the Bible, they do not force their views on others. Nor do they try to reverse laws that protect the human rights of those whose lifestyle differs from theirs. The message that Jehovah’s Witnesses bear is a positive one, and they eagerly share it with all who will listen.—Acts 20:20.

[jayrtom]

Our upcoming Awake has a well-balanced article on what does the Bible say about being gay. Especially in view of the misinformation that we are homophobic, which is further complicated by anti gay protesters who condone violence, such as what happened in Orlando.

https://www.jw.org/en/publications/magazines/awake-no4-2016-august/bible-say-about-being-gay/

 

While Jehovah’s Witnesses uphold the moral code set forth in the Bible, they do not force their views on others. Nor do they try to reverse laws that protect the human rights of those whose lifestyle differs from theirs. The message that Jehovah’s Witnesses bear is a positive one, and they eagerly share it with all who will listen.—Acts 20:20.

Great illustrations on this article! Perfect!

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[Dustparticle]

There is so much to read, and I don't know anyone post it and that is.  I heard the place was over crowded. So, will the manager face any charge for this?