January Broadcasting - Annual Meeting part 1

[jwhess]

15 minutes ago, Tortuga said:

I had the opportunity to spend a lot of time with Chuck several years ago. We would play billiards every week for several months while he was an SKE instructor at the local AH. He and his wife are doing well and still living in northern California.

 

BTW: his favorite game is 3 cushion carom. He is very good...

https://youtu.be/qRMCaOeWmqE

Thanks for your update.  I had (obviously mistaken) that his wife had died.

 

They attended our congregation (Eastlake, Ohio) when he wasn't engaged in district jobs.  They came over to our house for supper.  He had been reassigned to Alaska when we left the area in 1982.

 

Beloved memories are never 'off-topic"...🙂

[Tortuga]

1 minute ago, jwhess said:

Thanks for your update.  I had (obviously mistaken) that his wife had died.

His wife Ellie did die and Chuck remarried around 2013 I think..

[dove]

He served our area when he was a CO. As far as I know, Bro. Valorz died years ago, not sure how many. His wife died earlier than he.

[Tortuga]

5 minutes ago, Dove said:

He served our area when he was a CO. As far as I know, Bro. Valorz died years ago, not sure how many. His wife died earlier than he.

He and his new wife will be surprised to hear that!

 

 

 

🤣

Edited January 5, 2022 by Tortuga

[dove]

20 minutes ago, Tortuga said:

He and his new wife will be surprised to hear that!

 

 

 

🤣

Is this a recent picture? I distinctively remember being told what I wrote.

But very happy that it was a mistake 🙂

[TRUTH04]

1 hour ago, Dove said:

Is this a recent picture? I distinctively remember being told what I wrote.

But very happy that it was a mistake 🙂

Maybe they have resurrected right on time. Lol

[jwhess]

On 1/4/2022 at 10:59 AM, Jimi-L said:

I must say I have never held much of the ‘new light’ in relation to Joh. 5:29 and Dan. 12:2 'as new'. I have always understood those verses as resurrection after GT/Armageddon.  I think any other explanation would have been really far-fetched. I didn’t even remember that this had sometimes had a different explanation. On the other hand, I was not in the truth when the book on the subject was published (1999? https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/publication/r1/lp-e/dp ) But I did not associate the resurrection of life with the book of life. So there was something new after all! 

Note Br. Jackson’s words.

 

Transcript quote Br. Jackson’s talk “Are You There”

Now for a few moments, let’s think about those verses a John 5:28,29.  UP TO NOW, we have understood Jesus’ words to mean that the resurrected ones will do "good things” and that some will do “vile things” after their resurrection. But notice there in verse 29, Jesus didn’t say that they WILL do these good things or they WILL practice vile things.  He used the past tense, didn’t he? Because he said that they “did good things” and that they “practiced vile things”. So this would indicate to us that these deeds, or actions, were committed by these ones prior to their death and before they would be resurrected.

So that makes sense –doesn’t it? – because no one is going to be allowed to practice vile things in the New World.

 

Former beliefs in John 5:28-29 referring to “vile” things that are committed AFTER resurrection.

 

 

*** w64 12/1 pp. 727-730 Out of the Tombs to a “Resurrection of Judgment” ***

¹⁵ However, when do those who come out of the memorial tombs to a “resurrection of judgment” on earth have the judgment pronounced and executed on them? Not immediately after they take their stand before the “great white throne and the one seated on it,” but only after they “practiced vile things” either during Christ’s thousand-year reign or at the end of the thousand years when Satan and his demons are released from the abyss to tempt restored mankind.

¹⁶ Revelation 20:11-15…. So they may then and there be executed with the “second death,” because in a vile way they have refused to live up to the Kingdom requirements and to progress toward human perfection and holiness.

¹⁷ Others will be executed after the thousand years are over. … prove unworthy of eternal life. They will then be “those who practiced vile things.”

 

*** w65 7/15 pp. 447-448 Questions From Readers ***

● If resurrected ones are to be judged on the basis of their actions after being raised from the dead, why did Jesus use the past tense in discussing this matter at John 5:28, 29?—H.M., Papua, New Guinea.

…future viewpoint of the matter when one’s past during the millennium must be judicially reviewed, … “those who did good things to a resurrection of life, those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment.”

 

*** w65 1/1 p. 21 par. 11 Worship the God of Resurrection ***

Then, … Just how long people will be given the opportunity to practice vile things we cannot say, but it will be long enough to determine that the individuals do not want to do the will of God.

 

** w78 9/1 pp. 22-23 pars. 8-10 A Resurrection of Life and One of Judgment ***

⁹ Yes, the former life pattern will affect the problem of the resurrected ones … As Jesus indicated, at John 5:28, 29, they will either turn to the course of doing good things or turn to the practicing of vile things.

 

Former belief in Daniel 12:1-3 being a “spiritual awakening of the Anointed in 1919.

 

*** dp chap. 17 p. 291 par. 10 Identifying True Worshipers in the Time of the End ***

Has there been such a spiritual revival …. Then, against all likelihood, in 1919 they returned to life in a spiritual sense. These facts fit the description of the resurrection foretold at Daniel 12:2. Some did “wake up” spiritually at that time and thereafter. Sadly, though, not all remained in a spiritually alive state.

 

*** w87 7/1 pp. 21-23 pars. 1-9 Divine Blessings for “the Ones Having Insight” ***

Awakening “to Reproaches”

…In this way, their awakening turns out to be “to reproaches and to indefinitely lasting abhorrence.” They have no further prospect of everlasting life.

 

 

[Hope]

On 1/3/2022 at 12:24 PM, jwhess said:

We finally have the clarification about the "Unrighteous" group.  Well worth waiting for. Tying Daniel, John and Acts all together.  

 

And the "vile things" mentioned are the things they did before they died...John 5:29, "and those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment".

(practiced is "past tense" and there are no "vile things" in the New World).

Granted I haven't read this entire thread. But I did watch the Broadcast and I have to ask... what was the previous understanding?

 

I've ALWAYS known that the "resurrection of judgment" referred to the actions and attitudes shown by the "unrighteous" group after coming to full knowledge of the new and righteous ways of doing things.  That the "vile things" referred to how people behaved before their death.  Since death pays those wages, logically it's talking about what happened *before* they died... right?

 

I admit, I was confused as to how this was a new understanding. Did we formerly teach that *any* vile things could occur in the New World?  Did we not teach that the "unrighteous" referred to those who didn't have the opportunity to learn about Jehovah and Jesus Christ before they died?

 

Reading on to see what you guys say.  But, in my discussions with friends in the service group this week, they pretty much feel as I do... what is new?  

[Hope]

Okay - now I see Bro @jwhess former teachings outline.  Hmmm... I guess I missed those bits in my learning. I honestly NEVER thought anyone would be able to practice "vile things" in the New World.  The scripture I would quote for that would be Isaiah 11:9, since those "beastlike personalities" would be gone (or not put up with).

 

Interesting... 

[jwhess]

26 minutes ago, Hope said:

Okay - now I see Bro @jwhess former teachings outline.  Hmmm... I guess I missed those bits in my learning. I honestly NEVER thought anyone would be able to practice "vile things" in the New World.  The scripture I would quote for that would be Isaiah 11:9, since those "beastlike personalities" would be gone (or not put up with).

 

Interesting... 

I have had several conversations with experienced publishers this week.  I wondered out loud as to whether any current publishers really understood our current understanding (before Monday's broadcast).  One of the reasons for the disputes (discussions?) in another thread about "judgement" being attached to the "vile deeds".  If no one remembered that we believed that the vile deeds happened after resurrection in the New World, then they wound not see or appreciate the "clarification or change.

 

The belief that the Daniel 12 verses represented a "spiritual" resurrection of the Anointed in 1919 is probably not remembered either.  I am afraid that there are many with just vague understanding of such beliefs held by the FDS and not understood clearly by the many publishers.

 

Now we have a way of tying Acts 24 to Joh 5 and Daniel 12.  It is a blessing and an update or clarification...💗

[Sofia]

4 minutes ago, jwhess said:

The belief that the Daniel 12 verses represented a "spiritual" resurrection of the Anointed in 1919 is probably not remembered either.  I am afraid that there are many with just vague understanding of such beliefs held by the FDS and not understood clearly by the many publishers.

Last update was in 1999 I think... with Daniel´s prophecy book.

Many came to the truth quite after that book was studied and perhaps those texts never came across their own studies.

 

[jwhess]

36 minutes ago, Sofia said:

Last update was in 1999 I think... with Daniel´s prophecy book.

Many came to the truth quite after that book was studied and perhaps those texts never came across their own studies.

 

I continue to wonder about that.  When an ordinary publisher reads the Bible and gets to Daniel 12:1-3, what do they think? What does the scripture mean to them?  How does it fit into the large web or network of our Christian beliefs?  One sister who is close to our family told me she just skips over those kind of things and goes on.  I wonder how many gaps and how many misunderstandings?

[Eejay]

6 hours ago, Hope said:

I guess I missed those bits in my learning

 

The Insight book under Resurrection still carries a very clearly expressed, (but now mistaken) explanation which says (in part): "Consequently the viewpoint taken at John 5:29 is not identical with that at Acts 24:15 in which Paul speaks of the resurrection of “the righteous and the unrighteous.” Paul is plainly referring to those who have had a righteous or unrighteous standing before God during this life, and who will be resurrected. They are “those in the memorial tombs.” (Joh 5:28; see MEMORIAL TOMB.) At John 5:29, Jesus views such persons after their coming out of the memorial tombs and after they, by their course of action during the reign of Jesus Christ and his associate kings and priests, have proved themselves either obedient, with eternal “life” as their reward, or disobedient, and so deserving “judgment [condemnation]” from God."

The concept of judgement is there, but the exposition incorrect. I suspect this will be amended in time.

 

I still find the WT point from May 2005 p20 to be of interest also: 13 When Satan is released from the abyss for the final test, he will try to mislead humans once again. According to Revelation 20:7-9, all the ‘misled nations,’ or groups of people, who fall under Satan’s wicked influence will meet their judgment of destruction: ‘Fire will come down out of heaven and devour them.’ For those among them who experienced a resurrection during the Millennium, this destruction will make theirs a resurrection of condemnatory judgment. By contrast, resurrected integrity-keepers will receive the gift of everlasting life. Truly, theirs will be “a resurrection of life.”—John 5:29.

Once again, the concept is fine but the exposition off-target.

 

 

I loved the way Bro Jackson wove his talk around the concept of the "book of life". This thread for me really made the whole matter understandable, with Abel as the first (pencilled) entry, right through to the final test and having a confirmed entry made along with all the other faithful ones.

 

What was also interesting was the emphasis on dedication as the start point for a "book of life" entry. That is particularly significant at this point in time.

 

" the bright morning light that grows brighter and brighter"..... Pro.4:18

 

[Sofia]

6 hours ago, jwhess said:

One sister who is close to our family told me she just skips over those kind of things and goes on.  

Yep 

my husband does the same 🙄 that’s why I wrote the comment 

[Michał]

I remember believing our current understanding (after Monday's broadcast), then reading Insight comment, adjusting myself (when I tried to share that with others they all were surprised… haha…) and now I'm back and up to date

 

[SUNRAY]

21 hours ago, jwhess said:

He had been reassigned to Alaska when we left the area in 1982.

Chuck and his wife served as special pioneers in the Martinsville, Va. congregation where my husband attended in 1966. I met my husband in 1970 in Charlottesville, Va. and a couple of years after we were married, we moved to Rockville, Md. where I was from and helped renovate a house into a kingdom hall..Chuck visited with the C.O. after that..he might have been in the district work?

[jwhess]

1 hour ago, SUNRAY said:

Chuck and his wife served as special pioneers in the Martinsville, Va. congregation where my husband attended in 1966. I met my husband in 1970 in Charlottesville, Va. and a couple of years after we were married, we moved to Rockville, Md. where I was from and helped renovate a house into a kingdom hall..Chuck visited with the C.O. after that..he might have been in the district work?

Maybe Br. Richard has a better understanding of the dates.  But I was in the Willoughby, Ohio area between 1979 and 1982 when he was our DO.

[Hugh O'D]

21 hours ago, jwhess said:

One sister who is close to our family told me she just skips over those kind of things and goes on.  I wonder how many gaps and how many misunderstandings?

 

14 hours ago, Sofia said:

my husband does the same 🙄 that’s why I wrote the comment 

Hmm, now I can only go by my experience, the one's I've known like that "Oh, that's just too difficult for me" understood and loved Jehovah, stuck to his standards, understood the basics of why we're in a mess, what God is and will do about it and were zealous in his service. The bits they didn't understand they'd just say their brains couldn't understand them and would ignore such matters until Jehovah clarified them into more understandable forms. 

 

Then you'd have ones like, well that guy in the mirror beside me, who would study these things and zealously proclaim them while secretly and shamefully actually resenting Jesus for speaking in such a confusing manner making my ministry more difficult. Until Jehovah clarified the matter and we realise that Jesus was speaking very plainly and we were wrong. 

 

Gaps in knowledge and understanding? Yes, but honestly we all have those. Which attitude was wiser? Someone else can say.

 

On a different note, was finally able to discuss this with wife today (watched English on Monday but Malayalam, her language, version only came out last night). It was nice. She'd written down nearly every word in the talk to get the full sense of it. 

 

 

[Sheep]

23 hours ago, jwhess said:

I have had several conversations with experienced publishers this week.  I wondered out loud as to whether any current publishers really understood our current understanding (before Monday's broadcast).  One of the reasons for the disputes (discussions?) in another thread about "judgement" being attached to the "vile deeds".  If no one remembered that we believed that the vile deeds happened after resurrection in the New World, then they wound not see or appreciate the "clarification or change.

 

The belief that the Daniel 12 verses represented a "spiritual" resurrection of the Anointed in 1919 is probably not remembered either.  I am afraid that there are many with just vague understanding of such beliefs held by the FDS and not understood clearly by the many publishers.

 

Now we have a way of tying Acts 24 to Joh 5 and Daniel 12.  It is a blessing and an update or clarification...💗

I remember going over this in detail with an elder long before I was baptized. When the brother was researching through his bound volumes about John 5:28 & 29, he noticed a detail that he hadn't caught before. In verse 28, Jesus says that "all those in the memorial tombs will... come out." Jesus was discussing the resurrection of, not only those with an earthly hope, but of the anointed also. So, naturally, their judgments would be different. The anointed are judged immediately, when they die, and it is decided there and then if they are worthy of immortality. With those with an earthly hope, however, it is different. They need to be resurrected and then, in most cases, learn Jehovah's requirements from scratch. Only then, long after they are resurrected, can it be determined if they are doing "good things" or "vile things." And so while discussing the judgment, Jesus was using an "elliptical" expression, as was explained here, in order to include both groups.

 

This is going to take some time to figure out a few other things though. I don't have a perfect understanding of this yet. But I'm carefully reading through all the comments up to this point. Then I'm hoping I'll be enlightened.

[Cushi]

Did anyone else notice that when they depicted those who sinned against the Holy Spirit it showed religious leaders persecuting and probably about to kill someone for their zeal, perhaps for translating the Bible? I had never seen anything like this in our publications but I’ve always imagined that those who burned at the stake those who translated the Bible in centuries past sinned the against the Holy Spirit because they were working against Jehovah’s will. 

[Tortuga]

[Hugh O'D]

3 hours ago, *Jack* said:

when they depicted those who sinned against the Holy Spirit it showed religious leaders persecuting and probably about to kill someone for their zeal, perhaps for translating the Bible

Yes I liked that. Now it has to be modified with 

1) One of the Pharisees became the Apostle Paul

2) There are many faithful Brothers and Sisters today who were formally persecutors

 

So we don't judge individuals but some of the clergy who worked so hard to suppress God's word in the past went beyond being simply mistaken to sinning against the Holy Spirit.

 

I also liked that for those practicing "Vile" things was a conquistador attacking a helpless mother and baby. "Vile" really is a strong word, it's more forceful than "bad" or "wrong", they can cover a range from vile to naughty but Vile is, well, Vile.

 

But human history is full of Vile behavior, only Jehovah can read the heart and even one's who've done Vile things will be given a chance to become humble imitators of God like Mannasah and Paul did.

 

Spoiler

I do NOT recommend researching such matters. When I was reading about the Soviet conquest of Nazi Germany this included the mass rapes that took place. Soviet women also helped their male comrades in doing this. One woman being interviewed in the 80's or 90's related how angry she'd been because these women had "Roses" so why had they attached her country.

 

She said it took over a decade before she stopped hating the women she helped brutalize and decades before she started to pity them. Jehovah knows what's in the heart and he can see who can be redeemed.

 

One thing I like about this is that at the end of the Thousand Years Satan will come back to see people he thought he had irredeemably mired in wickedness now united with their former victims in glorifying Jehovah. Jesus will Break Up all the works of the Devil (1 John 3:8).

 

[Eejay]

7 hours ago, Sheep said:

The anointed are judged immediately, when they die, and it is decided there and then if they are worthy of immortality.

Don't forget to factor this in: 

*** w07 1/1 p. 31 Questions From Readers ***
When will the remnant of anointed Christians who have initially been sealed receive their final sealing? Any still alive on earth will be sealed “in their foreheads” before the outbreak of the great tribulation. When the four winds of tribulation are unleashed, all of spiritual Israel will have been sealed in finality, even though a few will still be alive in the flesh and must yet finish their earthly course.

[Sofia]

6 hours ago, *Jack* said:

Did anyone else notice that when they depicted those who sinned against the Holy Spirit it showed religious leaders persecuting and probably about to kill someone for their zeal, perhaps for translating the Bible? I had never seen anything like this in our publications but I’ve always imagined that those who burned at the stake those who translated the Bible in centuries past sinned the against the Holy Spirit because they were working against Jehovah’s will. 

Judas seems on top of it too

[Thesauron]

Did anyone else notice that when they depicted those who sinned against the Holy Spirit it showed religious leaders persecuting and probably about to kill someone for their zeal, perhaps for translating the Bible? I had never seen anything like this in our publications but I’ve always imagined that those who burned at the stake those who translated the Bible in centuries past sinned the against the Holy Spirit because they were working against Jehovah’s will. 

No, they were part of the rattling bones. Sure they were early, but something was in the works.