Jehovah's Witnesses anti-gay?

[Thesauron]

I have never heard that a witness to admits to having homosexual inclinations would be disfellowshipped or corrected in any way. If anything, he would get loving assistance to deal with those feelings. Really, there might have been instances in the past where they might not have been treated with fellow feeling, empathy, but I don't know. How would you like to be treated if you were fighting strong urges to stay on the straight and narrow? That is how people struggling with their sexuality should be, and mostly, I believe, are treated within the congregation. Now, if they act upon them, they will need correction, just as straight people who do not respect marriage. We do not allow same sex marriage, because marriage is a union instituted by God between a man and a woman, and that is our view. (Genesis 2:24) There will, however, always be people who claim we said no when really we said yes. As stated above, people are not animals - we can really control our urges. (Except, now someone will come and say I said people are animals. I did not. However, evolutionist biologists do.)

[ChocoBro]

14 minutes ago, Thesauron said:

As stated above, people are not animals - we can really control our urges. (Except, now someone will come and say I said people are animals. I did not. However, evolutionist biologists do.)

 

Good point there, and very ironic, isn't it.

[thegreenjudy]

I always find it interesting when they bring up that, compared to heterosexual people, homosexual people will never be allowed to marry according to the bible so therefore never have the opportunity to be in a loving relationship. So what about people who have little prospect of marriage for other reasons? Maybe they have a disability which restricts them to find a suitable mate ? And there are many other heterosexual people who just cannot find anyone - sometimes for something as stupid as societal standards about looks. Who stands up for them? Those people will probably never find a marriage mate but still have feelings. It would be just as wrong for them to seek out for example prostitutes to fulfill their desires. 

 

Also, I doubt that many people at Stonewall are religious at all or ever go to church (unless they will be allowed at one point to get married in churches - but that might be the first and last time )

 

One problem in the UK is that the ant-discrimination laws are very vague and often even the courts don't apply it correctly because it doesn't really state clearly what counts as discrimination - there are so many fine lines. Often the subjects of the law (namely religion and sexual orientation) are at odds with each other and by protecting one person you discriminate the other if you apply the law wrong. A while ago a Christian lady went to court to appeal a written warning she received from her employer, the NHS (which is government run), and claimed that they discriminated against her. She had religious discussions with a Muslim lady at work and encouraged her at one point to attend church. The Christian lady said it was all consensual and she would have never spoken to her about it if the Muslim lady had not engaged in the conversation and never indicated she felt uncomfortable. Oddly enough, the Muslim lady suddenly complained to her manager about the Christian lady for harassment when she gave her a book. So in the end the Christian lady ended up being suspended and a written warning was given to her. In court, the Muslim lady didn't even turn up to give witness. I think that maybe someone at her home didn't like what she was doing and urged her to stop the conversations and the best way without being awkward would be to complain to her employer. Here is the news report: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-35988115

 

Now if this had been about a gay person speaking to a heterosexual person and ending up with a disciplinary all hell would have broken loose about employee discrimination. Or even if it had been a Muslim lady trying to preach to a Christian and they had appealed.

 

When I worked in care we had online courses we had to complete and one was about discrimination in the work place and of people we support. One case was "Does it count as discrimination if you refuse to support someone to go to a gay bar" and the answer was yes (!!). This has since been deleted as it was completely wrong. I would never support someone to go to ANY club as we as Support Workers were allowed to not do something if we felt uncomfortable with it - one user loved watching Horror movies and I refused to watch them which obviously wasn't viewed as discrimination however when it touched on the  issue of gay bars or anything similar my manager would go a bit funny (although she was in the wrong) . It goes both ways. And as someone mentioned before, discrimination is if someone actively harasses, offends or even abuses someone on the basis of their religion, sexual orientation, gender etc etc. Just holding an opinion is not discrimination. There have been so many companies being sought out by Stonewall who refused to give a service to someone because they were gay - but not just purely and simply because of that but because they refused to support a gay couple getting married for example (bakers and wedding photographers were targeted). It's not like refusing to sell them a pot plant. Hence many brothers stopped doing wedding photography. I have had many gay colleagues in the past any we got on well and there were never any issues. I was able to witness to some and many are not truly happy. But I would never dream of being nasty to any of them. After all, Jehovah dignifies people with  free choice. That doesn't mean that they can join the Christian congregation if they continue acting on their desires - and that is purely the upshot of it. It's not like anyone who pursues this lifestyle is keen on becoming one of Jehovah's Witnesses anyway so I think it's a bit of an excuse to just find a reason for discrimination. 

 

 

 

 

 

[jayrtom]

All of us just need to abandon or own desires that are in conflict with God's standards... Committing gay acts is just one of many of those desires... No more no less important 

• Mt 16:24
• Then Jesus said to his disciples: “If anyone wants to come after me, let him disown himself and pick up his torture stake and keep following me.

[jpcook]

On 9/2/2016 at 7:39 PM, Sheep said:

I should have figured. A few months ago we produced a video called One Man, One Woman, and following it several LGBT organizations were accusing us of being anti-gay, discriminatory, or homophobic. (See this thread.) Now, one of our recent magazines has come under attack for the same reason! What do you make of this?

 

http://www.northdevonjournal.co.uk/jehovah-s-witnesses-distribute-anti-gay-harness-your-habits-in-north-devon/story-29679291-detail/story.html

 

It amazes me how some people can twist a very balanced presentation of Bible facts and turn it into justification of their hatred toward us!

 

It is strange how they want us to be tolerant of their views, but, they are not tolerant of ours!

[ReadYourBible]

On ‎9‎/‎11‎/‎2016 at 0:25 PM, Daniel244 said:

The time will come when we will be strongly attacked by the LGBT community, even sent to trial because we expel from the congregation people practicing porneia, specially "men and women who submit to homosexual acts, men and women who practice homosexuality" (1 Cor 6:9) .

 

"Now we know that the Law is fine if one applies it properly, recognizing that law is made, not for a righteous man, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, ungodly and sinners, disloyal and profane, murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, manslayer, sexually immoral people, men who practice homosexuality, kidnappers, liars, perjurers, and everything else that is in opposition to the wholesome teaching. 1 Tim 1:8-10". 

I perceive this as well.  I have heard of reports coming from Vancouver that there have been ones who have come into the halls and flounced around with feather boas....

 

Just as Satan stirred the crowd to get Jesus sentenced as opposed to the criminal, he too stirs the pot here.

[Thesauron]

I perceive this as well.  I have heard of reports coming from Vancouver that there have been ones who have come into the halls and flounced around with feather boas....
 
Just as Satan stirred the crowd to get Jesus sentenced as opposed to the criminal, he too stirs the pot here.

Anyone disturbing the peace is removed, of course. If their sole reason to be there with outrageous clothes is to create a stir, I'm sure the brothers would remove him no matter his sexuality.

[ReadYourBible]

1 hour ago, Thesauron said:

Anyone disturbing the peace is removed, of course. If their sole reason to be there with outrageous clothes is to create a stir, I'm sure the brothers would remove him no matter his sexuality.

Agreed.  We've also in the past had protesters at the conventions, but not so much now that most of them are in Red Deer. 

[ChocoBro]

9 hours ago, Thesauron said:

Anyone disturbing the peace is removed, of course. If their sole reason to be there with outrageous clothes is to create a stir, I'm sure the brothers would remove him no matter his sexuality.

Dress code. If you can expel a man from your restaurant for wearing jeans, you can expel a man from your Kingdom Hall for wearing a tights pink miniskirt and blonde wig.

 

The elders could tell the transsexual / transvestite / gay man / lesbian / etc. that he is quite welcome to come again and listen to the talks and programme, but please adhere to the dresscode.

 

Just my logic, though, of course the social justice warrior elite judges may think otherwise no matter what the actual laws are.

Edited September 23, 2016 by ChocoBro

[tekmantwo]

15 minutes ago, ChocoBro said:

Dress code. If you can expel a man from your restaurant for wearing jeans, you can expel a man from your Kingdom Hall for wearing a tights pink miniskirt and blonde wig.

 

The elders could tell the transsexual / transvestite / gay man / lesbian / etc. that he is quite welcome to come again and listen to the talks and programme, but please adhere to the dresscode.

 

Just my logic, though, of course the social justice warrior elite judges may think otherwise no matter what the actual laws are.

 

Maybe a dress code of sorts could be posted outside on the sign?..

Kind of like the 'no shoes, no shirt, no service. ' sign at stores...

[ChocoBro]

6 minutes ago, tekmantwo said:

Maybe a dress code of sorts could be posted outside on the sign?..

Kind of like the 'no shoes, no shirt, no service. ' sign at stores...

I was thinking the same thing. But it'd be a challenge to create one. We don't want to burden guests and curious visitors with dress codes they don't know and might embarass them. The dress code would need to be restricted to three or four sentences defining modesty and a mutual respect, no clothing that could be deemed offensive or overtly sexual. Something with a little room for interpretation, so that a homeless man in rags doesn't feel like he's not welcome but a man who purposefully wears a pink tutu and pink suspenders knows he is clearly violating the dress code.

[Thesauron]

Dress code. If you can expel a man from your restaurant for wearing jeans, you can expel a man from your Kingdom Hall for wearing a tights pink miniskirt and blonde wig.
 
The elders could tell the transsexual / transvestite / gay man / lesbian / etc. that he is quite welcome to come again and listen to the talks and programme, but please adhere to the dresscode.
 
Just my logic, though, of course the social justice warrior elite judges may think otherwise no matter what the actual laws are.

At least here, people wearing jeans are not removed. We do not know the reason why they come dressed such. A transvestite seeking spiritual comfort and not to cause a stir might be welcome as well. Both will learn soon enough what the proper dress code to the circumstance is. My lovely cousin made the mistake to come to a convention in a new country in a skirt that given certain lightning turns almost invisible. She had no clue about it. The attendants simply asked her to cover up a bit, but did not ask her to leave. Had she created a stir though, or done it as a demonstration...

[hatcheckgirl]

Wow!  Tomorrow is International Day against Homophobia, transphobia, biphobia, and we are "celebrating" at work with a lovely big rainbow cake provided for all and a morning tea.  !  Wha?????  And I work for a Federal government department, so it's really telling just how far their influence is now....

[carlos]

2 hours ago, hatcheckgirl said:

Wow!  Tomorrow is International Day against Homophobia, transphobia, biphobia, and we are "celebrating" at work with a lovely big rainbow cake provided for all and a morning tea.  !  Wha?????  And I work for a Federal government department, so it's really telling just how far their influence is now....

That sounds way over the top.

 

One thing is to treat everybody with respect no matter their sexual orientation, and a different thing is having rainbow cake to celebrate the day against homophobia. People are going crazy.

[Vinnie]

ok, time to stir the pot. Time to set things straight. 

 

 What are you all going on about? Why do you say we are not "anti gay" First off, what does it mean to be anti gay? 

We are not pro-gay and we are not neutral on the subject. We stand on Jehovah's side as to what is right and what is wrong.

 We are not going to brow beat or harm anyone else for being gay. We do not incite any form of violence against their choice. 

We are  tolerant of their choice, while we promote God's standards and his way of living.

 

Jehovah is definitely anti gay. Lev 20:13. But it's a good thing we are no longer under the Mosaic law but under the law of undeserved kindness.

1 Cor. 6: 9,10 is clear that any unrighteous acts described here disqualify a person from inheriting God's Kingdom.  Do we respect people for being thieves, drunk drivers, extortioners?

Romans 1 26-32 has strong words of denunciation as well.

 

Is this a touchy subject or has the world make it that way?  What is good is bad and bad is good.

[Tortuga]

25 minutes ago, Vinnie said:

What are you all going on about?

Do you refuse to talk to or study the bible with a gay person?

[Vinnie]

1 minute ago, Tortuga said:

Do you refuse to talk to or study the bible with a gay person?

of course not. That's why I tried to also ask the question  - what does it mean to be "anti-gay"

[hatcheckgirl]

Just one of many good articles I've had a read in readiness - https://www.jw.org/en/publications/magazines/g201012/explain-bibles-view-of-homosexuality/#?insight[search_id]=4b2689a2-adb9-46d0-9ba3-0a2c5509999d&insight[search_result_index]=3

[Tortuga]

2 minutes ago, Vinnie said:

of course not. That's why I tried to also ask the question  - what does it mean to be "anti-gay"

It depends on the person's perception of the term. We hate the sin but love the person. Some people can't separate the two and think the sin makes the person who they are. We are anti-sin but pro-people.

[trottigy]

1 hour ago, Vinnie said:

 Do we respect people for being thieves, drunk drivers, extortioners?

Romans 1 26-32 has strong words of denunciation as well.

 

Is this a touchy subject or has the world make it that way?  What is good is bad and bad is good.

 

This from the article linked to above:

 

Quote

Shouldn’t Christians treat all people with respect, regardless of their sexual orientation?

Absolutely. The Bible says: “Honor men of all sorts” or, as Today’s English Version renders it, “Respect everyone.” (1 Peter 2:17) Therefore, Christians are not homophobic. They show kindness to all people, including those who are gay.—Matthew 7:12.

If someone asks: “Doesn’t your view of homosexuality encourage prejudice against gays?”

You might reply: “Not at all. I reject homosexual conduct, not people.”

✔ You could add: “To illustrate it, I also choose not to smoke. In fact, I find the very idea of it repugnant. But suppose you’re a smoker and you feel differently. I wouldn’t be prejudiced against you for your view, just as I’m sure you wouldn’t be prejudiced against me for my view—am I right? The same principle applies to our differing views of homosexuality.”

 

So, do we respect people FOR BEING thieves? No

 

Do we respect people who are thieves and liars? Sure. Otherwise how do we show respect to certain elected officials   

 

Edited May 16, 2017 by trottigy

[cricket246]

We disagree with alternative lifestyles but we're not homophobic. There are other lifestyles that the Bible says is just as equally wrong - such as relations before marriage between a straight couple, pedophilia, having relations with someone other than your marriage mate. With some people this can become a very defensive or even argumentative subject. The world's thinking is : If you are not FULLY for or agreeable with something, then you are against it and seen as the enemy...

[Tortuga]

1 hour ago, Vinnie said:

Time to set things straight. 

[Vinnie]

1 minute ago, Tortuga said:

I was thinking of 2 Tim 3:16 and it does include getting help with setting my own thinking straight of which I cant count on everyone's here's help with.

 

 

[Tortuga]

9 minutes ago, Vinnie said:

I was thinking of 2 Tim 3:16 and it does include getting help with setting my own thinking straight of which I cant count on everyone's here's help with.

Can or cant?

Your response sounded a little egotistical and I'm anti-ego...

[Vinnie]

can

yikes, I even read it twice before I hit submit and still an error remained.