DISCUSS COURT CASE HERE JW.org - Jehovah’s Witnesses Mobilize Global Response to Threat of Ban in Russia

[Beggar for the Spirit]

Possible Translations

CA = "Administrative Center" or the Branch Office

LROs = Congregations

Edited April 12, 2017 by Beggar for the Spirit

[Adelin]

the jw-russia website does not want to work for me today 

so glad I can read the updates here  

THANKS to the ones posting!

[And_Ray]

2 minutes ago, Adelin said:

the jw-russia website does not want to work for me today 

so glad I can read the updates here  

THANKS to the ones posting!

Open the page in incognito window. Solved the problem for me.

[Beggar for the Spirit]

Well it is 4AM here in the middle of the U.S. and I am sooooo tired.

So I have to go but please keep sending money to Sister Samira and Sister Rosie.  

They accept any kind of money, they are not picky. 

 

Edited April 12, 2017 by Beggar for the Spirit

[Adelin]

18 minutes ago, And_Ray said:

Open the page in incognito window. Solved the problem for me.

Doesn't work either.  (went fine for the first time, but then it's blank)

Edited April 12, 2017 by Adelin

[New World Explorer]

4 minutes ago, Beggar for the Spirit said:

Well it is 4AM here in the middle of the U.S. and I am sooooo tired.

So I have to go but please keep sending money to Sister Samira and Sister Rosie.  

They accept any kind of money, they are not picky. 

 

 

So nice to see your sense of humor

[jayrtom]

12:30

 The queue to ask questions passes to the plaintiff.  What is the role of the CA in approving the charters of the LROs and their members?  Omelchenko gives the following example.  The role of the CA in approving the MPO statutes is similar to the role of the Ministry of Justice itself: the Ministry of Justice verifies the statutes for compliance with the law, and the UC checks the statutes for canonical compliance.

 New questions from the representative of the Ministry of Justice are devoted to clarifying how independent the LROs are in their activities, how important is the influence of the CA on the LROs, including in the approval of the governing bodies and charters of the LROs.

 The court asks the representative of the Ministry of Justice a counter clarifying question: "From the point of view of legality, how does this affect the legal capacity and legal personality of legal entities?" The question turns into a rhetorical question.  Ministry of Justice: Who are the traveling ministers?  Who are the special preachers?  Representatives of the defendant explain that these ministers cooperate with religious groups, and not with the MPO.
 

 12:50

 Judge (addressing the representative of the Ministry of Justice): Does the plaintiff have evidence that the traveling ministers and special preachers are somehow involved in the decisions of the competent authorities that came into force on the recognition of individuals or LROs as guilty of extremist activities?  No, the Justice Ministry does not have such facts.

 The court (referring to the representative of the Ministry of Justice): Does the Ministry of Justice still believe that judicial acts against natural persons and MPOs have a pre-judicial force for our case?  Yes, the Justice Ministry still thinks so, because the UC was aware of these cases.  The Court recalls that in this process it is necessary to verify the legality of the requirements of the Ministry of Justice, so please continue to bring the norms of the laws.

[Guri]

4 minutes ago, jayrtom said:

12:50

 Judge (addressing the representative of the Ministry of Justice): Does the plaintiff have evidence that the traveling ministers and special preachers are somehow involved in the decisions of the competent authorities that came into force on the recognition of individuals or LROs as guilty of extremist activities?  No, the Justice Ministry does not have such facts.

[jayrtom]

13:10
 The representative of the Ministry of Justice is trying to find out whether the fact that the UC is providing material assistance to the LRO, or that the UC and the MRO is a single organization subordinated to the CA, is not indicative of the fact.  Lawyer Zhenkov explains that if a person provides material assistance to his friend, this does not mean that he is dependent.  Ministry of Justice: Does the UC inspect the financial activities of the LROs?  Lawyers explain that there is no such duty at the CA, but it is the Ministry of Justice that performs regular inspections of the economic activities of the LRO, as evidenced by hundreds of acts of inspections of the Ministry of Justice that are available in the cases.  And none of the inspections revealed the use of funds for non-target purposes.

[Guri]

2 minutes ago, jayrtom said:

13:10
 The representative of the Ministry of Justice is trying to find out whether the fact that the UC is providing material assistance to the LRO, or that the UC and the MRO is a single organization subordinated to the CA, is not indicative of the fact.  Lawyer Zhenkov explains that if a person provides material assistance to his friend, this does not mean that he is dependent.  Ministry of Justice: Does the UC inspect the financial activities of the LROs?  Lawyers explain that there is no such duty at the CA, but it is the Ministry of Justice that performs regular inspections of the economic activities of the LRO, as evidenced by hundreds of acts of inspections of the Ministry of Justice that are available in the cases.  And none of the inspections revealed the use of funds for non-target purposes.

I guess The Ministry of Justice acted in rush.

"Do not rush into a legal dispute" -  says the proverbs. "For what will you do later if your neighbor humiliates you?"

 

Edited April 12, 2017 by Zacchaeus The Short

[cheesychat]

Ive been following you all via email, nice to be home now and online with you all. 

[jayrtom]

By the way it's going at this time, It seems to be going adjourned again...

[New World Explorer]

13 minutes ago, Zacchaeus The Short said:

I guess The Ministry of Justice acted in rush.

"Do not rush into a legal dispute" -  says the proverbs. "For what will you do later if your neighbor humiliates you?"

 

 

I think they are stunned to see how well we are defending ourselves and how well we are organized.

[Ahuvah]

Is there an adjournment date?

[Abbyz]

1 minute ago, jayrtom said:

By the way it's going at this time, It seems to be going adjourned again...

It seems it will keep on beeing adjourned untill all letters that were sent reach them.

[sunshine]

 

SIMPLIFIED VERSION (for anyone that might be interested) ... End of the Morning - 12th April

 

 

11"12  Our 2nd Lawyer speakes:  He wants to go back to a document the MoJ (Ministry of Justice) tried unsuccessfully to make the jugde accept.  It was about the blood Issue.  He (our Lawyer) points out the MoJ said it was an example of how we don't let people have their Human rights.

 

- firstly, how come you have Medical confidential (secret) documents that only the patient and doctors have the right to see?

- secondly, this wasn't a case of not being allowed their rights in fact its the opposite, the Witness had the RIGHT to refuse a treatment (s)he didn't want, that's the law.

- Further, the Ministry of Health says blood transfusions have dangers and it is the law you must ask the patient if they want one or not.  How come some religious people  are allowed to say what treatement they want and some (like us) are told we cannot? 

 

11"30 NOW THE JUDGE ASKS OUR LAWYERS QUESTIONS:

 

-  Does the Russian Branch decide on the interpretation of scripture? No, that comes from the Headquarters in America (Faithful Slave)

-  How does the Russian Branch "organize" the activities of the congregations? They give recommendations.  For example, when it comes to building Kingdom Halls the Bethel will recommend the style but the congregations make the final decisions.

 - Regarding congregations that are "TC" (registered charities ??) does the Bethel decide what procedures are followed then?   The Bethel will approve their guidelines so that the members are all Jehovah's Witnesses that will respect bible principles.

 

12"05  The Judged continues to question the brothers:

 

- Are Presiding overseers of the Congregations ever part of the financial department of the Branch?   The Brothers respond:   No, they are kept seperate.

 

- Are there any circumstances when there is a connection between the Branch Finance Dept and the Congregations? The Brothers respond:   Yes, when they ask the Branch for a loan or donations for example to build a hall or to help with disaster relief.

 

- Do the congregations ever get money from you to produce literature?   The Brothers respond:  No (?) the congregation do not produce the literature.

 

- Does the Russian branch oversee the distribution of literature?  The Brothers respond:  No, the Branch simply produces and sends the literature to the local congregations, the congregations are responsible for its "distribution".

 

- What about a book [unnamed in the transcript] that was declared illegal just after it was imported, but was still spread amongst your believers?  The Brothers respond:    Yes, but we immediately informed the congregations that it was illegal and told them not to distribute the book.

 

- What do you DO with the banned books? The Brothers respond:   Brothers respond:  We do not tell the congregations what to do with the books, we tell them to obey the law [the law only says don't distrube them it doesn't say to burn them]

 

12"30 Now THEIR Lawyers ask our brothers questions:

 

-  What role does the Branch play in the individual charter (legal guidelines) of the congregation "founders" ? The Brothers respond:   They check that congregations  guidelines respect bible standards, just like a court checks that organizations respect the law.

 

- How much influence does the Branch have on who are the founding members of congregations?  [Judge intervenes that this is relevant to legal representatives of an organization]  Question goes unanswered.

 

- Who are the Travelling  Overseers and Special Pioneers?  They are Ministers appointed by the Branch not the congregation.

 

12"50 JUDGE intervenes:  Do you have any proof these special  full time Ministers are involved in choosing the congregation overseers or are involved in any illegal activities?   Their  Lawyer answers:   Er... no not really.

 

The JUDGE asks their lawyer, do you have any reason to ask us to consider the activities of these individuals?

 

Their Lawyer responds:  Yes,  because the Bethel know what they do.  The Judge reminds their Lawyer that knowing about something is not a crime, we are here to discuss the law so please stick  to legal matters.

 

 

Their Lawyer continues to try and establish that the congregations and the Branch are all one legal organization (so if they ban one they ban them all) because they sometimes give money to the congreations but .... The brothes point out that just because you give someone money doesn't mean you support them financially .

 

Their Lawyer asks, Do you check what the congregations do with their money?  

 

The brothers answer, yes, but so does the Ministry of Justice, does that make you a branch of the Jehovah's Witnesses too? Anyway, none of our check revealed anything  against (legal) guidelines.

 

 

Edited April 12, 2017 by sunshine

[jayrtom]

3 minutes ago, Stormswift said:

Is there an adjournment date?

Not yet...

 

[sand]

Thank you very much Rosy for your work

[Bluebell]

13:40	The court announces a break in the court session until 14:30.

 

 

[jayrtom]

I was wrong, it was adjourned to the afternoon

 

 13:25
 The representative of the Ministry of Justice is interested in the question of why the UC sent a letter to the LRO about recognizing one of the extremist books only after its inclusion in the FEMC, if by their own admission they knew about the decision earlier, from the information on the district court's website.  Lawyers explain that it is extremely difficult to monitor court decisions on official court websites, moreover, it was not clear from the brief information on the court's website that it was the publication of Jehovah's Witnesses, and not the same-named publication of a different origin. 

 13:35
 The representative of the Ministry of Justice draws attention to the fact that, according to the obsolete (until 2010) copies of the "Fundamentals of the Doctrine of the Witnesses of Jehovah", the main means of disseminating the teachings of Jehovah's Witnesses is the magazine "Watchtower".  The permission to distribute this periodical was withdrawn in Russia, and the document "Foundations of the Doctrine", submitted to the Ministry of Justice, was changed accordingly.  The representative of the Ministry of Justice is interested in what is the source of the teachings of Jehovah's Witnesses now.  Lawyers explain that the Bible is the basis for the belief of Jehovah's Witnesses, and most of the Witnesses' religious books are based on the Orthodox Synodal edition.  The periodical itself was not considered extremist, but only a few issues.  Since 2015, no publications at all are imported into the country. 

 13:40
 The court announces a break in the court session until 14:30.

[sunshine]

END OF THE MORNING (Simplified if anyone is interested)

 

 

13"25  Their Lawyer asks:   Why did you send a letter saying to the congregations not to distribute a book AFTER the ban had appeared on the Court website.

The Brothers Respond:  Because it is difficult to keep up with everything on that site and the way the ban was put it wasn't clear they were talking about one of our books.

 

Their Lawyer points out that the main way to spread the beliefs of the Jehovah's Witnesses is THE WATCHTOWER which has been banned.  What do you use today to spread your teachings.

 

The Brothers respond:  The bible - we mainly use the Russian Orthodox Translation (touché)

 

The Brothers go on to point out,  ALL the Watchtowers were not banned, only a few and no literature has been imported into Russia since 2015

 

13"40 Break for Lunch until 14"30

Edited April 12, 2017 by sunshine

[Guri]

4 minutes ago, sunshine said:

The Brothers respond:  The bible - we mainly use the Russian Orthodox Translation

True. Brothers do use Russian Synodal Bible. This Bible contains the Divine name JEHOVAH in 9 times. Brothers also use other Bible translations such as Makarios Bible where you can find Jehovah's name thousands of times.  I guess the representatives of The Ministry of Justice soon will learn many good things about Jehovah and his People and will get baptized right in the Court Room :DDD

[sunshine]

3 minutes ago, Zacchaeus The Short said:

True. Brothers do use Russian Synodal Bible. This Bible contains the Divine name JEHOVAH in 9 times. Brothers also use other Bible translations such as Makarios Bible where you can find Jehovah's name thousands of times.  I guess the representatives of The Ministry of Justice soon will learn many good things about Jehovah and his People and will get baptized right in the Court Room :DDD

 

Loved this point.

 

 

[Friends just call me Ross]

This could go on for WEEKS, at this rate.

[sunshine]

8 minutes ago, Friends just call me Ross said:

This could go on for WEEKS, at this rate.

I hope not for the brother's sake.  Also I'm on Easter holiday (which is the only reason I'm able to follow this "live") I'm back at work next week so I'll only be able to see what  happened in the evening...

 

It's sure to go on at least a few more days...