Shooter in Las Vegas

[tekmantwo]

1 hour ago, Thesauron said:

Was it once considered a mental problem in the US to love buying or owning guns?

I don't think anybody was really worried if someone had a bunch of guns, at least not until the mass shootings started...

 

It was considered just another hobby,  like RC cars or fishing. You can't just have one fishing pole, you need several,  each suitable for a certain thing. Maybe fly fishing,  another bait caster, a lightweight pole, spinning gear, all that stuff.

 

Samesame guns. There's handguns, and types of handguns. There's many types of rifles, each type performs a different task.

 

I don't think that people looked down on folks that were just pursuing life, liberty and happiness. They didn't concider the gun collectors kooks, just that they enjoyed guns...it wasn't an issue until folks started shooting up the town.

That's the way I remember it..

[Shawnster]

14 hours ago, Old said:

 

I am not aware that any illegal guns have been identified at the hotel location, do you have a source?

Bumpstocks as stupid as the idea is are not illegal.

Likewise for "it is illegal to have firearms in a hotel."

I have been searching and haven't found support for this statement. It is true, carrying guns in the casino part of a hotel is illegal.

Las Vegas has the most and biggest gun shows in the world and that would be hard to do if you couldn't bring your stock of merchandise into a hotel.

 

 

 

Looks like the only comment you are disagreeing with is the comment about having guns at the hotel was illegal. 

 

The way the news stated was that the hotel is private property. Every room is private property of the casino.  All residents must comply with the rules of the private property owners. This includes laws and rules about possession of firearms on private property.

 

Other than that, looks like you and I are saying the same thing. 

[Shawnster]

22 minutes ago, Shawnster said:

 

Looks like the only comment you are disagreeing with is the comment about having guns at the hotel was illegal. 

 

The way the news stated was that the hotel is private property. Every room is private property of the casino.  All residents must comply with the rules of the private property owners. This includes laws and rules about possession of firearms on private property.

 

Other than that, looks like you and I are saying the same thing. 

 

 

Illegal looks like poor word choice on my part.  But possession of firearms at Mandalay Bay entirely, not just casino, is prohibited. 

 

Despite Nevada’s open carry law, the shooting took place at the Mandalay Bay hotel, which has a strict no-weapons policy. Such policies technically don’t have the weight of law, meaning they can’t remove your weapon, but they can tell you to leave and have you arrested for trespass if you don’t.

 

https://lawnewz.com/legal-analysis/stricter-gun-laws-would-not-have-prevented-las-vegas-shooting/

 

 

 

 

[Shawnster]

9 hours ago, Thesauron said:

Was it once considered a mental problem in the US to love buying or owning guns?

 

No.  Never.

 

What people who do not live in the United States (and some that do live in the United States) do not fully grasp is why the United States even has gun rights.

 

When the 13 original colonies were under British rule, they chafed under what was perceived to be an unjust and tyrannical government,.  The British seized the colonists guns so that only the government, the British soldiers, had guns.  The government also seized private property of colonists and turned them over to British soldiers to live in.  Further, in order to quell the rising sentiment of rebellion and hostility, the British government restricted the rights of people to assemble together.  They limited the legal size of any crowd.  This was to prevent people congregating together and discussing revolution.  The American Colonists saw their homes taken over by outsiders and they had no way to defend themselves because their guns were taken away.  The British also restricted what could legally be printed in the newspapers and any stories that were anti-British were outlawed.  They were helpless and at the mercy of their government.  To add insult to this injury, their government, the British, levied harsh taxes that were seen as extreme and impossible to pay.  The colonists had zero representation in their government across the ocean.  They were helpless, without a voice and without a means to defend against this perceived heinous treatment.

 

The rebelled.  

 

After the Revolution, the United States founded the Constitution and the Bill of Rights (the first 10 Amendments to the Constitution).  This Bill of Rights lists the rights the US Citizens had that superseded the government.  The government did not have these rights, the people did and the government could not remove these rights from the citizens.

 

The First Amendment, the first piece of the Bill of Rights, guarantees the right of freeness of speech, religion, press, and assembly.  The government had no right to restrict these liberties.  Freedom of thought and expression, who to associate with and how to worship was the bedrock of the new America.

 

The Second Amendment guaranteed the right to keep and bear arms and to form an organized militia.  This Amendment was NOT intended to help the hunter or farmer protect his livestock or put food on the table.  The Amendment was to give the citizens power to fight against a United States government that might grow corrupt and abusive.  If the United States government ever became what the British government was and did to the citizens what the British government did to the colonists - illegally seize their property, restrict liberties, take away the voice of the people - then the citizens had the power to rebel and stop this abuse of power.

 

At the time, the Second Amendment gave the common citizen the same level of equal firepower as any soldier.

 

The Second Amendment was put in place to give the citizens the feeling that they had the final say and could prevent their new government from ever growing into an abusive imperial dictatorship.

 

All well and good in principle, but the Founding Fathers never imagined there would be a time when a gun could fire over 100 rounds in a minute and a single shooter could kill 58 people in just a few minutes from over a quarter a mile away and on a perch over 300 feet in the air.  Nuclear weapons were not forseen.  Neither were tanks or missiles or any WMDs.  

 

 

8 hours ago, Gregexplore said:

I am in shock! That's very "loose law" or should I say wild wild west?

 

 

Laws vary from state to state.  Some states have stricter gun laws.  10 states and the District of Columbia, for example, require a mandatory waiting period when purchasing a gun.  You don't walk into a gun store in those states and buy a gun in 5 minutes.  Not typically.  You wait a number of days for the process to be complete.  This is to allow someone who snapped a cooling down period and regain his or her senses.

[Shawnster]

Now, here is the irony:

 

You're typical "pro-gun" person is patriotic, loves "god" (lower case on purpose), loves America and is a staunch defender of their Second Amendment rights to keep and bear arms.  

 

HOWEVER

 

They are quick to judge someone that does not stand for the National Anthem as being unpatriotic and disrespectful.  They think these people MUST stand for the National Anthem.  These people are disrespecting their country and their flag by not standing.  They should not be protesting in this fashion.

 

The ironic thing is that such peaceful demonstrations and not standing for the National Anthem is protected under the First Amendment.  Freedom of speech and expression.  Anyone who wishes to not stand for the National Anthem may do so.  That is their right under the US Constitution and the government does not have the right to remove that liberty from them.  So, these gun loving supporters of the Second Amendment have no problem with ignoring the First Amendment. 

 

How utterly unpatriotic for these staunch patriots.

 

Just like the Bible, they pick and choose which portions they want to follow and which ones they want to ignore.

[tucker]

We in this city have had success in answering the opinion that we are unpatriotic for not standing to honor the flag or pledge. We counter with the statement that we are the most patriotic people in the world. We respect the laws of the country in which we live..we pay our taxes, obey traffic laws,etc...But we are envoys from another government and have the right to obey our government first, when it conflicts with our residence laws. This often leaves the complainers shaking their heads in total confusion, but it does tend to put out the fire of contention in those who oppose our beliefs and rights.

[M&M]

12 hours ago, Dismal_Bliss said:

 

Here in the USA, everything that was once considered a mental problem is now a lifestyle choice. Anything goes, you have to accept them for who they are, and if you speak out against anybody or anything you are an old-fashioned "bigot".

The condition of the world and it's morals today reminds me of:

(Isaiah 5:20) Woe to those who say that good is bad and bad is good, Those who substitute darkness for light and light for darkness, Those who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter!
 

[futurepromise]

 

[M&M]

I never heard of bumpstocks until this incident. I don't really see why they allow civilians to have that capability, even in this world? 

 

 

http://uproxx.com/news/what-is-bump-stock-legal-stephen-paddock/

In a bump stock, there’s a gap in the stationary stock allowing the gun’s recoil to drive it backward. There’s also a “support step” where the shooter can rest their finger. Then they simply pull the gun forward. When it fires, the semiautomatic action engages, reloads, and the trigger hits the shooter’s finger, firing again. The gun is “bumping” against the stock, and thus is automatic.

As to why bump stocks are legal, under the law, you cannot convert a semiautomatic rifle to a fully automatic one, yes, but that’s not, technically, what a bump stock is doing. Swap out the stock, a relatively simple matter for an experienced shooter, and the gun is a semiautomatic. An automatic weapon is defined under the law as one with an internal automatic mechanism. Since the stock isn’t an internal mechanism, it’s legal.

 

http://www.cnn.com/2017/10/04/us/bump-stock-las-vegas-shooting/index.html

Are they legal?

While automatic weapons are tightly regulated in the US, the use of bump-fire stocks in semi-automatic weapons is legal.

Bump-fire stocks allow semi-automatic weapons to simulate automatic fire but "do not actually alter the firearm to fire automatically, making them legal under current federal law," Snyder said.

But some believe bump-fire stocks, while legal, violate the spirit of gun restrictions.

"This is something that works around and circumvents our laws," Gagliano told CNN's Chris Cuomo on "New Day." "You're not mechanically modifying a weapon, but you're putting an aftermarket product on that allows you to lay down ... suppressive fire."

[ChocoBro]

23 minutes ago, M&M said:

I never heard of bumpstocks until this incident. I don't really see why they allow civilians to have that capability, even in this world? 

 

 

Okay I'm gonna go out on a limb here. The things are overrated, and I still can't imagine they are the explanation for all the deaths in this shooting of more than 500 meters distance. The police have yet to reveal something more. Bump stocks are a silly novelty that do nothing but mimic fake automatic fire. The accuracy goes down the drain when using these things to get the feeling of fully automatic fire, in the end, a semi-automatic weapon is almost as dangerous. The shooters shots were too precise and grouped on point, after all, he was shooting supposedly without a tripod as well, so I still tend to think he had some illegal firearm. Wouldn't surprise me, since Battlefield Las Vegas have everything from a handgun to even a minigun that you can fire, and this guy was filthy rich. Just my thoughts though. Blablabla conspiracy, whatever.

[Shawnster]

24 minutes ago, ChocoBro said:

 

Okay I'm gonna go out on a limb here. The things are overrated, and I still can't imagine they are the explanation for all the deaths in this shooting of more than 500 meters distance. The police have yet to reveal something more. Bump stocks are a silly novelty that do nothing but mimic fake automatic fire. The accuracy goes down the drain when using these things to get the feeling of fully automatic fire, in the end, a semi-automatic weapon is almost as dangerous. The shooters shots were too precise and grouped on point, after all, he was shooting supposedly without a tripod as well, so I still tend to think he had some illegal firearm. Wouldn't surprise me, since Battlefield Las Vegas have everything from a handgun to even a minigun that you can fire, and this guy was filthy rich. Just my thoughts though. Blablabla conspiracy, whatever.

 

What is your firearms background?  If you don't mind me asking.

[ChrisC]

So, if it is difficult to buy a gun in one state (waiting times etc) someone can go to another state and get it easier/quicker?

[Hope]

3 minutes ago, ChrisTheConfused said:

So, if it is difficult to buy a gun in one state (waiting times etc) someone can go to another state and get it easier/quicker?

 

Yep.  One of the many things about where having self-governing states that seemed like a good idea at the time.. but more often is proven a pain to the actual citizens.  Solid laws that affect the entire country, no matter where one lives is much more reasonable, in my opinion.

[Musky]

1 hour ago, ChocoBro said:

The accuracy goes down the drain when using these things to get the feeling of fully automatic fire, in the end, a semi-automatic weapon is almost as dangerous. The shooters shots were too precise and grouped on point, after all, he was shooting supposedly without a tripod as well, so I still tend to think he had some illegal firearm. Wouldn't surprise me, since Battlefield Las Vegas have everything from a handgun to even a minigun that you can fire, and this guy was filthy rich. Just my thoughts though. Blablabla conspiracy, whatever.

 

When you are firing into a crowd of 22,000 for over nine minutes, you do not need accuracy to kill 58 people or wound hundreds more.  

Edited October 5, 2017 by Musky

[ChocoBro]

39 minutes ago, Shawnster said:

 

What is your firearms background?  If you don't mind me asking.

 

I don't mind you asking but I do mind having to go into detail. Let's just leave it at I'm an excellent marksman and I know a lot about guns from back in the day before I became a Witness (/"again").

 

1 hour ago, futurepromise said:

 

 

Though I can not begin to comprehend this lady's pain, I don't think it's alright to say "if he wants to commit suicide, go do it, who cares". She seems very embittered, which I understand. But I worry that her only path to coming to terms with this will be through forgiveness.

 

1 hour ago, M&M said:

I never heard of bumpstocks until this incident. I don't really see why they allow civilians to have that capability, even in this world? 

 

 

I know we're all angry about what happened in Vegas, I know I couldn't sleep last night. However, this is what I mean with gun politics creeping into our discussion. It is not up to us to decide whether this world allows fighter jets or artillery cannons in private ownership or not. It's not what guns, or who owns guns that's the problem, it's guns (or let's say weapons) that's the problem.

 

I say this because I've noticed the brothers in Germany easily drift into this narrative, when it has nothing to do with political neutrality to take a stance on this. Let the world handle their own problems.

[Tortuga]

2 hours ago, M&M said:

Those who substitute darkness for light and light for darkness, Those who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter

Pretty interesting quote from a guy named after a chocolate candy..

[ChocoBro]

4 minutes ago, Musky said:

 

When you are firing into a crowd of 22,000 you do not need accuracy to kill 58 people or wound hundreds more.  

 

I know but the videos show the firing salvos to be on point, not randomly skipping around an area of a few acres.

 

Also I might add not everything is automatically a "conspiracy theory". Police have an agenda, too. There's politics in this kind of thing. The media, on the other hand, are always heavily biased, and have their agenda. It's not "conspiracy", it's the cold fact that people with certain levels of power misuse that power for their own motives or political motives. For example, the mass sexual assaults in Cologne on New Years Eve 2015 were kept silent for several days due to orders that came all the way from the top of the police department, until massive public pressure from eyewitness accounts broke the silence.

[Old]

36 minutes ago, ChocoBro said:

 

I know but the videos show the firing salvos to be on point, not randomly skipping around an area of a few acres.

 

 

I will go with Muskie on this one.

To be on point? How do you make this conclusion? How do you define point? I could not see any impact points from shots fired and the shooter wasn't using tracers. 

 

[Tortuga]

I'm really surprised that we are taking the time to dissect the details of this horrendous event. Shouldn't we just weep and then put it to rest?

[Shawnster]

9 minutes ago, Tortuga said:

I'm really surprised that we are taking the time to dissect the details of this horrendous event. Shouldn't we just weep and then put it to rest?

 

Again, LET'S DROP THE CONSPIRACY TALK!

[trottigy]

I have seen the bump stocks in use - they don't change the accuracy. Also, not 400 yards, but 300 and at that angle (from a 32nd story window to the ground) it's not that difficult to be "accurate". 

 

We had at least 6 from our Congregation who were at the concert and all are ok! One has only a sprained ankle from the stampede out of there. Crazy world. May the Kingdom take full control of this world SOON! 

 

[Old]

42 minutes ago, Shawnster said:

 

Again, LET'S DROP THE CONSPIRACY TALK!

What conspiracy talk?

Oh! okay, I see it now, sorry my mind goes blank when I see conspiracy posts. 

[trottigy]

Quote

Debunked claims appear in top 5 videos for news about Las Vegas shooting, NFL anthem protests

 

YouTube this week surfaced videos peddling misinformation, hateful messages and conspiracy theories to users searching about mainstream news events—problems that caused the site to change its search results to promote more authoritative sources.

For example, the fifth result when searching “Las Vegas shooting” on YouTube late Tuesday yielded a video titled “Proof Las Vegas Shooting Was a FALSE FLAG attack—Shooter on 4th Floor.” The video said there were multiple shooters in Sunday’s mass shooting, a claim refuted by law enforcement....

 

https://www.wsj.com/articles/youtube-tweaks-its-search-results-after-rise-of-las-vegas-conspiracy-theories-1507219180

 

Knowing several people in law enforcement in Vegas - I am happy to DEBUNK that stupid theory also!!!!

Edited October 5, 2017 by trottigy

[cricket246]

The faithful and discreet slave definitely know what spiritual food we need and at the right time, too! The article in the watchtower on keeping firearms for protection is a timely reminder on how they could be used for unscriptural things, even in the event of self protection and the need to maintain self control & be peaceable, relying on Jehovah.

Edited October 5, 2017 by cricket246

[M&M]

2 hours ago, cricket246 said:

The faithful and discreet slave definitely know what spiritual food we need and at the right time, too! The article in the watchtower on keeping firearms for protection is a timely reminder on how they could be used for unscriptural things, even in the event of self protection and the need to maintain self control & be peaceable, relying on Jehovah.

You can said that again. Think about this months Awake offer with the recent devastating hurricanes and earthquakes:

https://www.jw.org/en/publications/magazines/awake-no5-2017-october/disaster-steps-that-can-save-lives/

When Disaster Strikes—Steps That Can Save Lives