Vegan and vegetarian brothers and sisters

[Meditate!]

19 minutes ago, Pjdriver said:

 

Here’s what the scriptures say directly on the matter of the purpose of animal behavior and what we have all observed.

....”unreasoning animals that act on instinct and are born to be caught and destroyed.”  

2 Peter 2:12

 

The science is overwhelming that animals were designed to be predators or to protect themselves from predators.

In other cases where science and the Bible are seemingly at odds, we have seen that there 

has been an adjustment. Many of us have seen that sometimes if a scripture is interpreted one way and if then strong scientific evidence contradicts it....we look at the scriptures again and if there’s the possibility of a another more reasonable explanation....we have no problem adjusting it.

One example is the length of creative days. Also, Some used to think that when Jehovah said the “sun stood still”....then it must be literal,  and they’ve tried to prove it thru a missing day in history. 

The scriptures themselves do allow for a more harmonious interpretation in this case. 

We do know that the scriptures portray wild predatory animals causing no harm to our domestic animals. Most of us don’t have flocks or herds to worry about now, but we will then. Isaiah tells us as it did back then that we won’t have that problem in the NW. So we do believe this will be a literal fulfillment.

What we’re saying is not unreasonable.

 

I feel this thread has departed needs its own thread out of this forum.. I don't have a recipe

 

 

Some nice points though Burt..

 

There are two sides of this issue and either can get entrenched into minutiae.. Are we going to see wild animals tearing each other apart, or chasing other mercilessly, on the plains around us in the NS? Of course not. Isaiah and the FDS say not; good enough for me. When we talk about the NS to those in the ministry or study with, are we going to deny it? They and their children are looking or better things so we rightly mention peace among the animals.. and we should!

 

Then we get further down the food chain and see things we don't tend to give as much attention to. Around spring here when the adult Mayfly erupts out of the water en masse.. literally millions.. they live in the air for between 1 to 10 seconds it seems, as birds just gorge themselves on them to fatten themselves up for a vast migratory journey. The Mayfly are full of protein, and fluid, at the same time. It is only because of the overwhelming amount of  the Mayfly  coming out of the water that some survive for the next season.  The fish under the water do the same as they start come up out of the water. 

 

Turtles and their eggs.. overwhelming numbers to preserve the species, is the same. Bro @Tortuga comes to mind ..

 

Is this behaviour/feeding as a result of the changes Jehovah put into his creation. I don't know. We don't seem to have the same emotional attachment to these animals; perhaps that is why we seem to 'accept it as normal'.

 

I'm glad Jehovah is the one who will draw the line.

[Naturale]

1 hour ago, Pjdriver said:

The science is overwhelming that animals were designed to be predators or to protect themselves from predators.

So science comes before the bible??  This is what our literature says based on what the bible teaches.  

Did the human and animal creations always behave the way they do now? Have they always hurt and maimed and killed? Were they designed to do that?

The answer to these questions is: NO, not at all!

 

[Pjdriver]

4 minutes ago, Naturale said:

So science comes before the bible??  This is what our literature says based on what the bible teaches.  

Did the human and animal creations always behave the way they do now? Have they always hurt and maimed and killed? Were they designed to do that?

The answer to these questions is: NO, not at all!

 

Quote

So science comes before the bible??

You know I didn’t say that. I said they can be harmonized. The FS has in fact adjusted to a more scientific answer when necessary. So please don’t try to portray me as saying science comes before the Bible.

Quote

Have they always hurt and maimed and killed?

unreasoning animals that act on instinct and are born to be caught and destroyed.”  

2 Peter 2:12

Quote

Were they designed to do that?

All evidence screams: yes!

 

[Hope]

36 minutes ago, Alan said:

I feel this thread has departed needs its own thread out of this forum.. I don't have a recipe

 

 

Some nice points though Burt..

 

There are two sides of this issue and either can get entrenched into minutiae.. Are we going to see wild animals tearing each other apart, or chasing other mercilessly, on the plains around us in the NS? Of course not. Isaiah and the FDS say not; good enough for me. When we talk about the NS to those in the ministry or study with, are we going to deny it? They and their children are looking or better things so we rightly mention peace among the animals.. and we should!

 

Then we get further down the food chain and see things we don't tend to give as much attention to. Around spring here when the adult Mayfly erupts out of the water en masse.. literally millions.. they live in the air for between 1 to 10 seconds it seems, as birds just gorge themselves on them to fatten themselves up for a vast migratory journey. The Mayfly are full of protein, and fluid, at the same time. It is only because of the overwhelming amount of  the Mayfly  coming out of the water that some survive for the next season.  The fish under the water do the same as they start come up out of the water. 

 

Turtles and their eggs.. overwhelming numbers to preserve the species, is the same. Bro @Tortuga comes to mind ..

 

Is this behaviour/feeding as a result of the changes Jehovah put into his creation. I don't know. We don't seem to have the same emotional attachment to these animals; perhaps that is why we seem to 'accept it as normal'.

 

I'm glad Jehovah is the one who will draw the line.

Regarding the green - we really don't see that now, except for on nature programs.  That action generally happens far from where humans live.  And to be fair, the animals ARE in peace 'til a hunt is on.  I've seen plenty of nature programs where cheetahs are just relaxing on the savanna with antelope, etc grazing quietly nearby. No one looks upset to me.  There's no reason for a cheetah to run 70 mph that I can imagine except to catch something running nearly as fast.  And all cats stalk.  There's no need to sneak up on a plant...

 

No - I wouldn't deny what Isaiah exactly says at all.  I would let a student know about the symbolic fulfillment regarding beastlike personalities and if he/she asks if that means that actual lions will start to eat literal straw (which has little nutritional value... hay is different) and snakes eating dust, I'd say I'm not exactly sure how Jehovah will make all that look in real time but it will be for the best.   

 

While I do love animals, my pets, Jehovah's creation, I guess I'm one of the few that don't have much emotional attachment to animals on that level - especially if something is just trying to eat and live like everybody else.  Predatory animals do not hunt for the fun of it or torture their prey.  They're about the business of catching, eating and moving on.  Since that is the case, I just view it as the circle of life... that everything has a place and a purpose.  I don't have much more attachment to a wildebeest hunted and eaten by a lion than I do a bunch of mayflies providing nourishment for the birds.  Everybody's gotta eat.  But there's a balance there. 

 

The only animals hunted to extinction have been by human.  Ours is the behavior and attitude that needs checking, imo.

Edited July 29, 2019 by Hope

[Naturale]

7 minutes ago, Pjdriver said:

You know I didn’t say that. I said they can be harmonized. The FS has in fact adjusted to a more scientific answer when necessary. So please don’t try to portray me as saying science comes before the Bible.

unreasoning animals that act on instinct and are born to be caught and destroyed.”  

2 Peter 2:12

All evidence screams: yes!

 

I was only responding to what you said  "that science is overwhelming that animals were designed to be predators or to protect themselves from predators! "  You are saying Yes and our literature based on the bible is saying No!  

 

[jayrtom]

1 hour ago, Pjdriver said:

 

Here’s what the scriptures say directly on the matter of the purpose of animal behavior and what we have all observed.

....”unreasoning animals that act on instinct and are born to be caught and destroyed.”  

2 Peter 2:12

 

This scripture is obvious talking in figurative terms as the Apostle Paul himself writes that as an illustration. The intent was for the readers to understand the point so he talks about what they in fact observe

James says the same thing but with a simpler illustration, so you see what was the main point

"But these men are speaking abusively about all the things they really do not understand.+ And in all the things that they do understand by instinct like unreasoning animals,+ they go on corrupting themselves."

 

But the fact is that, knowing very well that text, the FDS tells us that animals will be in peace with each other. Being the future a restoration of the past, they were also in peace with each other when God created them and said it was good

 

1 hour ago, Pjdriver said:

The science is overwhelming that animals were designed to be predators or to protect themselves from predators.

 

The same overwhelming scientifc articles that say that, also say that everything appeared by evolution...

 

In other cases where science and the Bible are seemingly at odds, we have seen that there 

has been an adjustment. Many of us have seen that sometimes if a scripture is interpreted one way and if then strong scientific evidence contradicts it....we look at the scriptures again and if there’s the possibility of a another more reasonable explanation....we have no problem adjusting it.

The fact that we have seen that in some cases doesn't mean off course that now we're going to think science is the thing to follow.

Also like our publications stressed several times, if you expect something to change, wait silently for that because the FDS has not made any adjustment on the topic

 

1 hour ago, Pjdriver said:

One example is the length of creative days. Also, Some used to think that when Jehovah said the “sun stood still”....then it must be literal,  and they’ve tried to prove it thru a missing day in history. 

Those "some" were evangelical and not JW's. We don't need to search for any scientific proof to believe in anything

BTW, also on this case the FDS considers this as a literal phenomenon whatever the cause for it - But hey, you have an overwhelming science evidence against this! So you doubt it?

 

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2004882#h=25:0-27:0

10:13—How is such a phenomenon possible? “Is anything too extraordinary for Jehovah,” the Creator of the heavens and the earth? (Genesis 18:14) If he chooses to, Jehovah can manipulate the movement of the earth so that the sun and the moon would seem motionless to an earthly observer. Or he can let the movement of the earth and the moon remain undisturbed while refracting the rays from the sun and the moon in such a way that the light from these two luminaries continues to shine. Whatever the case, “no day has proved to be like that one” in human history.—Joshua 10:14.

 

1 hour ago, Pjdriver said:

The scriptures themselves do allow for a more harmonious interpretation in this case. 

We do know that the scriptures portray wild predatory animals causing no harm to our domestic animals and us. Most of us don’t have flocks or herds to worry about now, but we will then. Isaiah tells us as it did back then that we won’t have that problem in the NW. So we do believe this will be a literal fulfillment.

What we’re saying is not unreasonable.

 

You may think what you want, that's your prerogative, but I'll keep putting what the slave as written ahead of my own thoughts on the subject

 

 

[Hope]

double post

Edited July 29, 2019 by Hope

[Naturale]

 So much being said is out of  kilter with what the bible teaches but this seems to be the case on many other subjects as well on this site.

Edited July 29, 2019 by Naturale

[jayrtom]

 

26 minutes ago, Pjdriver said:

unreasoning animals that act on instinct and are born to be caught and destroyed.”  

2 Peter 2:12

All evidence screams: yes!

 

If you say that, I'm sorry you'd be a bad detective

 

So, I collected several evidences from an accredited Laboratory (the FDS) that point to a single conclusion and now you say evidence screams otherwise?????!!!!!

I think this would be easy peasy even for Dr Watson... We don't even need a Sherlock Holmes for this..

 

I'm going to laugh so I can't cry

 

Edited July 29, 2019 by jayrtom

[jayrtom]

12 minutes ago, Naturale said:

 So much being said is out of  kilter with what the bible teaches but this seems to be the case on many other subjects as well on this site.

Amen!

[Pjdriver]

10 minutes ago, jayrtom said:

I'm going to laugh so I can't cry

 it’ll all work out.  

[Cushi]

1 hour ago, Naturale said:

The thing is Jack that this page was meant to be for exactly that to talk about vegetarian and vegan food   That's why I came in here too.  But look what has happened!  It's just impossible.

That’s why I asked that. I only read a few comments but didn’t want to read them all. It’s been a debate lately, which is why I haven’t been in the thread 🙁

 

[Qapla]

Last night my daughter cooked a pasta dish with mushrooms ... it tasted just fine and was filling without any meat.

[Pjdriver]

30 minutes ago, Qapla said:

Last night my daughter cooked a pasta dish with mushrooms ... it tasted just fine and was filling without any meat.

Problem solved! 

[daydream]

We could easily pick Truffles from the woods in the New System and just add to any dish. Just dreamin'

http://most-expensive.com/foods

 

 

 

 

 

 

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The World’s Most Expensive Bagel – $1000

This bagel, created by Executive Chef Frank Tujague for New York’s Westin Hotel, is topped with white truffle cream cheese and goji berry infused Riesling jelly with golden leaves. The bagel’s price is justified when you consider that white truffles happen to be the second most expensive food by weight, eclipsed only by caviar. The underground fungus grows only under specific oak trees in Alba, Italy. Their pheromone-like odor is considered to be an aphrodisiac and is the reason dogs and female pigs are used to hunt the precious truffle

Dansuke Watermelon – $6,100

In a country where watermelons are rare game, they can be a costly commodity. That’s how a 17-pound Japanese watermelon became the most expensive watermelon in the world. Densuke watermelons, a type of black watermelon grown only on the northern Japanese island of Hokkaido, are usually given as gifts due to their extraordinary rarity. There were only sixty-five of the fruits among the first harvest this season. They are harder and crisper than the watermelons we Americans are used to and, according to Tohma Agricultural Cooperative’s spokesman, they “have a different level of sweetness.”

 

 

 

 

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Yubari Melons – $22,872

Another type of expensive melon, the world’s most expensive cantaloupes are a pair of Yubari melons and were the first auction of the 2008 season. They had previously been judged the best pair and were purchased by the owner of a nearby seafood lunchbox and souvenir business. It had some competition—100 melons grown by farmers from Yubari were also judged.

 

Italian White Alba Truffle – $160,406

Expensive truffles are notoriously pricey because they are difficult to cultivate. This makes them a true delicacy which some have called the king of all fungi. The Associate Press reported that a real estate investor and his wife from Hong Kong have paid $160,406  for a gigantic Italian White Alba truffle which is reportedly the world’s most expensive ever. The most expensive truffle weighs in 1.51 kilograms 

 

.The height of decadence. 

 

[Naturale]

19 hours ago, Brother Jack said:

That’s why I asked that. I only read a few comments but didn’t want to read them all. It’s been a debate lately, which is why I haven’t been in the thread 🙁

 

Yes, I wish I hadn't been on the thread either

[Buttrfly71]

What is the purpose of this thread? I came thinking it was for recipes, and I find some very heated and accusatory comments. Are we not brothers and sisters? Is this how we should speak to one another? I feel like I am on Facebook with worldly people arguing about why vegan or meat eating is better. Have we not learned that the most important thing is not who is right or wrong (which none of you are right) but it is to show love? 

I apologize if this seems overly harsh, but I feel it needs to be said to bring people back to their senses! 😥

[Qapla]

14 minutes ago, Buttrfly71 said:

What is the purpose of this thread?

 

According to the original creator of the thread - the purpose was, "I would like to meet more vegan or vegetarian brothers and sisters around the world." 

 

Due to the rest of that first post, I did post a reply outlining the dangers of the clashing views and offered this hope: "I hope you find others on here that eat as you do and have some very uplifting exchanges - I also hope you will not get critics that feel they just HAVE to post in this thread"

 

Unfortunately, as you have observed, the thread went astray ...

 

Thank you for your post ... I do not think it is harsh at all since -

 

 it needs to be  said to bring people back to their senses!

[Naturale]

If people would just stick to what the bible teaches instead of personal opinions and worldly thinking then all would be well. 

 

"We cannot afford to rely only on the knowledge we initially gained when we accepted the truth. Continually, we have to take in solid spiritual food, accurate knowledge, by means of conscientious personal study. Paul’s counsel is appropriate: “Solid food belongs to mature people, to those who through use have their perceptive powers trained to distinguish both right and wrong. For this reason, now that we have left the primary doctrine about the Christ, let us press on to maturity, not laying a foundation again, namely, repentance from dead works, and faith toward God . . . And this we will do, if God indeed permits.”—Hebrews 5:14–6:3.

Edited July 31, 2019 by Naturale

[Buttrfly71]

1 hour ago, Naturale said:

If people would just stick to what the bible teaches instead of personal opinions and worldly thinking then all would be well. 

 

"We cannot afford to rely only on the knowledge we initially gained when we accepted the truth. Continually, we have to take in solid spiritual food, accurate knowledge, by means of conscientious personal study. Paul’s counsel is appropriate: “Solid food belongs to mature people, to those who through use have their perceptive powers trained to distinguish both right and wrong. For this reason, now that we have left the primary doctrine about the Christ, let us press on to maturity, not laying a foundation again, namely, repentance from dead works, and faith toward God . . . And this we will do, if God indeed permits.”—Hebrews 5:14–6:3.

My comment wasn't meant to get others to continue in the same way. Many people quoted scriptures and pressed their point of view. You included...it is the way it is being done, and it is outside what the OP wanted. 

Please, please just stop! 🛑

[McKay]

I will admit that I regret getting involved in this discussion. The tone became accusatory (myself included) and that's not why I joined this forum. For that, I'm sorry. Since I am not a vegan, I really have no further business posting on this thread so this will be my last word.

[BenJepthah]

Okay, seriously: anyone have any good vegetarian or vegan recipes or recommendations for ketogenic diets? 

[Buttrfly71]

I am still new at this (and not fully vegetarian). I am trying more veggie recipes, and so far my fave is stuffed peppers. Being italian I thought it would be difficult to do it without meat and still have it be flavorful...boy was I wrong! I used rice as a base and then finely chopped sweet peppers, onions, mushrooms, garlic, italian seasoning...added to the rice, made a tomato sauce to cook it in my crockpot, and it was delish!!

 

My second fave are buddha(?) bowls...never thought I could like all that veggies, fruit, avocado, and pasta or rice all together, but it's great. It's my go to lunch and now I just throw together whatever I have in my fridge...no recipes to follow.

 

I have found great recipes to try at the Forks Over Knives website. 

[Witness1970]

I guess I was one of the culprits about getting off topic. I had considered being a vegetarian for about the past 50 years. My wife eats a lot of meat-based meals.

 

The easiest thing for me would be an ovo-lacto vegetarian. Or, maybe just the "ovo' part. I do love eggs

 

Pure vegans as I have said before won't wear things made from animal products. The refuse to eat any honey or eggs or milk because all those things come from animals. I don't hink I can go that route.

 

Ja'in vegetarians won't eat anything that grows underground. Potatoes, carrots and peanuts would all be taboo. I could not do that either.

 

I would have to be a moderate vegetarian. I may even eat chicken and fish on occasion.

On 7/29/2019 at 12:30 PM, Hope said:

double post

@ Sister Uani: Love the new picture.

 

[Buttrfly71]

1 hour ago, Witness1970 said:

I guess I was one of the culprits about getting off topic. I had considered being a vegetarian for about the past 50 years. My wife eats a lot of meat-based meals.

 

The easiest thing for me would be an ovo-lacto vegetarian. Or, maybe just the "ovo' part. I do love eggs

I love eggs too!! 💕 Thus, no vegan for me!