Vegan and vegetarian brothers and sisters

[Meditate!]

31 minutes ago, Naturale said:

I've never implied that eating meat is wrong as it is a personal choice whether we do or we don't.  I was only saying that we are allowed the choice.  It is still a fact that some diets are better for health than others and eating only meat and nothing else is not good for anyone.  Interestingly the Israeli diet is still one of the healthiest.  https://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-has-lowest-rate-of-diet-related-deaths-in-the-world-major-study-finds/

 

Anyway isn't it true that Klingons eat live creatures?  So you need a page for that 😛

 

 

Gagh! Costco might start selling the frozen ones soon if there is enough interest.

[Memeber212]

 

 

 

 

On 5/22/2019 at 7:14 PM, Naturale said:

I've never implied that eating meat is wrong as it is a personal choice whether we do or we don't.  I was only saying that we are allowed the choice.  It is still a fact that some diets are better for health than others and eating only meat and nothing else is not good for anyone.  Interestingly the Israeli diet is still one of the healthiest.  https://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-has-lowest-rate-of-diet-related-deaths-in-the-world-major-study-finds/

 

Anyway isn't it true that Klingons eat live creatures?  So you need a page for that :p

 

 

Here is the actual article from the Lancet: https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(19)30041-8/fulltext

Israel is not even mentioned once in that study. I don't know much about the Jewish cuisine but the Jews who live in Israel and genetically further from the original Jews than the Palestinians who live there too. Actually, the Palestinians are the real, ethnic Jews who became Muslims. The Israelis brought to Israel all the food habits from the whole world. They even had to recreate the language as in 1948 the majority spoke Yiddish. Even today Hebrew is a native language to 50% of Israelis so their cuisine may be completely different from the one of those ancient Jews.  I guess the main factor is food availability in Israel. The food in that area is simply the best because of its variety, quality and nutrients.

I think the whole conversation started when I had said that fruitarianism is dangerous. The study you quoted actually mentions that the best diet is the Mediterranean one because it is well balanced (enough vegs, nuts, fish and meat).

Actually, the Bible reveals very little about the diet.  There is a lot more in Mishnas and Gemara (both form Talmud). Normal people ate meat not too often because it was expensive as it is a perishable product and there were no fridges to store the meat. So you would have to consume the whole animal within a couple of days. The priest ate a lot of meat because they were allowed to get something from sacrifices offered in the temple (1 Sam. from 2:11). The kings had meat on a daily basis. For example, Salomon's diet:

1 Kings 4:22 - Solʹo·mon’s food for each day was 30 cor measures of fine flour and 60 cor measures of flour,23 10 fattened cattle, 20 pastured cattle, and 100 sheep, besides some stags, gazelles, roebucks, and fattened cuckoos.

1 Kings 10:4-5 When the queen of Sheʹba had seen all the wisdom of Solʹo·mon, the house that he built,5 the food of his table, the seating of his servants, the table service of his waiters and their attire, his cupbearers, and his burnt sacrifices that he regularly offered up at the house of Jehovah, she was left completely breathless.

 

That is why I stated that the food was highly tied with financial prosperity.

Moreover, talking about Israel, what century are we discussing? There were over 1500 years we can cover until Jesus. There were times of prosperity and times of famine and also times when they were doing just like other nations.

[Memeber212]

And I still claim that fruitarianism is dangerous for life. It is mostly based on sugar and high in fructose. Fructose causes fat deposits in the liver when consumed excessively (and fruitarianism is all about fructose). High fructose diet causes leptin resistance, insulin resistance and so on, except severe lack of some vitamins I mentioned earlier.

https://www.physiology.org/doi/full/10.1152/ajprenal.00140.2005

https://www.nature.com/articles/srep26149

https://www.physiology.org/doi/full/10.1152/ajpregu.00195.2008

https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/british-journal-of-nutrition/article/prevention-and-reversal-of-dietinduced-leptin-resistance-with-a-sugarfree-diet-despite-high-fat-content/B5151988E8E23EB1F7CC75565B2BE069/core-reader

https://academic.oup.com/ajcn/article/89/6/1760/4596803

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2673878/

 

Fruitarianism < Veganism < Vegetarianism < Carnivore Diet < Balanced Diet (Omnivore)>Omnivore nbalanced died > Omnivore Diet based on low quality and junk food.

 

I did not mean to offend you in any way. I simply pointed out that fruitarianism is dangerous. I had a couple of people in my congregation who are very deep in vegetarianism but that comes with the whole ideology, which is mainly based that every scientific study lies because they want to hide something from us and are financially motivated. At the same time, they praise books that are written for the same reason. I can tell you more but I would rather not on an open forum.

[Naturale]

10 hours ago, tarcamion said:

On 5/22/2019 at 7:14 PM, Naturale said:

, the common pH

 

I think the whole conversation started when I had said that fruitarianism is dangerous. The study you quoted actually mentions that the best diet is the Mediterranean one because it is well balanced (enough vegs, nuts, fish and meat).

Actually, the Bible reveals very little about the diet.  There is a lot more in Mishnas and Gemara (both form Talmud). Normal people ate meat not too often because it was expensive as it is a perishable product and there were no fridges to store the meat. So you would have to consume the whole animal within a couple of days. The priest ate a lot of meat because they were allowed to get something from sacrifices offered in the temple (1 Sam. from 2:11). The kings had meat on a daily basis. For example, Salomon's diet:

1 Kings 4:22 - Solʹo·mon’s food for each day was 30 cor measures of fine flour and 60 cor measures of flour,23 10 fattened cattle, 20 pastured cattle, and 100 sheep, besides some stags, gazelles, roebucks, and fattened cuckoos.

1 Kings 10:4-5 When the queen of Sheʹba had seen all the wisdom of Solʹo·mon, the house that he built,5 the food of his table, the seating of his servants, the table service of his waiters and their attire, his cupbearers, and his burnt sacrifices that he regularly offered up at the house of Jehovah, she was left completely breathless.

 

 

 

I was only referring to the diet of the general population, the common people under Gods law and that it contained minimal meat. The law protected the people from poverty and so it was nothing to do with poverty, it was just a healthy diet that's all.

[Naturale]

 

 

For anyone interested in healthy eating they may find this interesting.

 

https://www.israel21c.org/13-reasons-you-should-eat-like-an-israeli/

 

 

[Hope]

5 hours ago, Naturale said:

 

 

For anyone interested in healthy eating they may find this interesting.

 

https://www.israel21c.org/13-reasons-you-should-eat-like-an-israeli/

 

 

 

That looks very nice... but I'm not keen on all that chopping and prepping (and olives = 🤢). I barely have time to get home and go to bed... and that much fresh food would go bad before I was able to eat it all.  The salads I eat are all pre-packaged from a grocery.  I'll just have to count on my naturally healthy constitution to keep me upright 'til it fails or the New World.

 

And forget communal meals.

 

 

 

[Gary910]

I had a doctor tell me that I should go vegan (I am a vegetarian) and that I should eat just Organic.

 

Does this count?

 

Disclaimer: I am sort of making a joke (in case anyone didn't get that). ...and I hope I am not throwing the Organic/Non-Organic controversy in to this.

[vern]

twinkies are vegan.....

 

you can have organic highly processed foods now.... use the reasoning of a sound mind....

[BenJepthah]

On 5/24/2019 at 7:04 AM, Naturale said:

 

I was only referring to the diet of the general population, the common people under Gods law and that it contained minimal meat. The law protected the people from poverty and so it was nothing to do with poverty, it was just a healthy diet that's all.

It was a healthy diet. I’m not so sure about the “ minimal meat” claim. The people weren’t instructed about not eating all those unclean animals for nothing. Nor did they raise all those goats , sheep and cattle just as pets. But the practice of not keeping meat overnight probably prevented preparing too much and encouraged communal dining. This would mean that nothing was wasted and the value of the lives taken in such consumption would be understood.

[BenJepthah]

On 5/22/2019 at 2:46 PM, Alan said:

Gagh! Costco might start selling the frozen ones soon if there is enough interest.

I’d only eat the frozen ones if the replicator technology can effectively make them move.

[EccentricM]

1 hour ago, vern said:

 

 

you can have organic highly processed foods now.... use the reasoning of a sound mind....

"I eat healthy, all my food is organically proccessed! We only use the most raw man made chemicals here!".

[Naturale]

22 hours ago, BenJepthah said:

It was a healthy diet. I’m not so sure about the “ minimal meat” claim. The people weren’t instructed about not eating all those unclean animals for nothing. Nor did they raise all those goats , sheep and cattle just as pets. But the practice of not keeping meat overnight probably prevented preparing too much and encouraged communal dining. This would mean that nothing was wasted and the value of the lives taken in such consumption would be understood.

• it-1 pp. 828-829

(1) The diet of the Hebrews did not normally include a great deal of meat, but when a family wanted to slaughter a domestic animal for meat, they took the animal to the sanctuary (unless, after they entered the Promised Land, the family lived too far away). (Le 17:3-5; De 12:20-27) They ate the meat after the priest offered some of it on the altar and received his portion. 

[Memeber212]

3 hours ago, Naturale said:

• it-1 pp. 828-829

(1) The diet of the Hebrews did not normally include a great deal of meat, but when a family wanted to slaughter a domestic animal for meat, they took the animal to the sanctuary (unless, after they entered the Promised Land, the family lived too far away). (Le 17:3-5; De 12:20-27) They ate the meat after the priest offered some of it on the altar and received his portion. 

But that is just an observation. It does not say if that was good or not. The priests used to eat a lot of meat and that was actually Jehovah ordered them to eat a bit of each sacrifice. There are observations of facts in the Bible. Meat is expensive because you cannot really eat a whole lamb (15-25kg of meat). Some will get off. So they were waiting until there are other people to eat, just to minimise waste. The Kings and those associated with them used to eat meat every day. Hebrew diet was not different from the diet of others within that area. I think that there is not enough evidence in the Bible to support any kind of diet or determine which diet is better or preferable by Jehovah/ more natural/ etc. We cannot eat blood - and this is the only diet fact that comes from the Bible.

[Naturale]

21 hours ago, tarcamion said:

But that is just an observation. It does not say if that was good or not. The priests used to eat a lot of meat and that was actually Jehovah ordered them to eat a bit of each sacrifice. There are observations of facts in the Bible. Meat is expensive because you cannot really eat a whole lamb (15-25kg of meat). Some will get off. So they were waiting until there are other people to eat, just to minimise waste. The Kings and those associated with them used to eat meat every day. Hebrew diet was not different from the diet of others within that area. I think that there is not enough evidence in the Bible to support any kind of diet or determine which diet is better or preferable by Jehovah/ more natural/ etc. We cannot eat blood - and this is the only diet fact that comes from the Bible.

 But we do know Gods people had a very different diet to the other nations.   We do know that they were thriving when other nations around them were not.   The strict regulations under the law protected them.    We do know their diets were good - more than good.  They were an agricultural society and had everything in abundance.  With Jehovah's instructions on everything in their lives including food how could it not be good?  It was wonderful!  As long as they were obedient to Gods law in all its aspects all was well in their lives.

 

 It's just a fact that meat was rarely eaten and was reserved for special occasions such as celebrations, festival meals or sacrificial feasts.

Edited June 5, 2019 by Naturale

[McKay]

I would say any attempt to draw diet advice from ancient Israel is folly. Consider that incest was common during patriarchal times but was eventually outlawed because of our descent into imperfection. It was nearly three thousand years from the creation of Adam to the Exodus. Furthermore, it's been more than three thousand years since the Exodus when the law was given. How much more has the human genome strayed from Adam's perfection? And don't forget that we are all exposed to more toxic elements because of our polluted atmosphere than humans living even a couple hundred years ago were. That's why I think trying to gather diet advice from ancient sources is doomed to be inaccurate. We have simply changed too much as a species.

[Memeber212]

3 hours ago, Naturale said:

 But we do know Gods people had a very different diet to the other nations.   We do know that they were thriving when other nations around them were not.   The strict regulations under the law protected them.    We do know their diets were good - more than good.  They were an agricultural society and had everything in abundance.  With Jehovah's instructions on everything in their lives including food how could it not be good?  It was wonderful!  As long as they were obedient to Gods law in all its aspects all was well in their lives.

 

 It's just a fact that meat was rarely eaten and was reserved for special occasions such as celebrations, festival meals or sacrificial feasts.

I am sorry but that seems to be a big simplification and over-interpretation of the Bible. What time in Jewish history do you refer to? What other cultures were back then apart from the agriculture ones? What does it mean they had everything in abundance? Does it refer to livestock too? So if Jehovah allowed eating unclean animals He wanted bad for us?

I am from Poland. Before the second war, Poland was a poor country. My great grandmother told me that it was very rare they had some meat too. Now, if I say that meat was rarely eaten in Poland before WW2, does it imply by any means that eating meat is not beneficial for health or bad? The plant-based diet was very common for people in the bronze age. Their diet did not change much since Abraham.

I don't want to be an advocate for meat. Don't take me wrong. I just simply say that we cannot choose one sentence and reject the other. If you state that the meat was for special occasions I agree with that. Although the reasons are not given. But for the priests that special occasion happened daily. So the kings had meat daily. Why? Could that be because of their financial prosperity? I simply think that they had their food in abundance. Had Jehovah chosen the Eskimos instead, they would have plenty of seals (if they were clean animals). Otherwise, there would be a cookbook in the Bible too if the food was that important. 

[New World Explorer]

We have guests coming for dinner to our place tomorrow and one sister is vegetarian ...

My wife is a at loss and simply does not know what to prepare for her

I "suggested" carrots ..and almost got smack!

 

HELP? Any simple ideas? (apart from carrots or raw celery? LOL)

[Meditate!]

7 minutes ago, New World Explorer said:

We have guests coming for dinner to our place tomorrow and one sister is vegetarian ...

My wife is a at loss and simply does not know what to prepare for her

I "suggested" carrots ..and almost got smack!

 

HELP? Any simple ideas? (apart from carrots or raw celery? LOL)

Hi Greg

 

We have CO's visiting for a meal with us occasionally. Some have specific dietary needs. They are accustomed to being asked 'what they can eat'. Our last CO's wife was pleased to be asked and was very pleased that she had all of the 'stuff' she liked!

 

I suspect many vegetarians would likely be accustomed to being asked and cooperate. I would just ask them. .. if they don't like being asked.. there's always carrots and a side order of celery.

 

'smack!' 

[daydream]

https://www.vegetariantimes.com/recipes/mixed-vegetable-stir-fry

 

 

Ingredients

3 Tbs. vegetable oil

6 large cloves garlic, coarsely chopped

1 Tbs. yellow miso

1 tsp. vegetarian oyster sauce

1/2 tsp. sugar

1 lb. assorted vegetables (such as asparagus, green beans, eggplant, mushrooms, bell pepper and bean sprouts), cut into bite-size pieces

1 jalapeno pepper, seeded and thinly sliced

 

Preparation

1. In a large wok or large heavy skillet, heat oil over high heat. Add garlic, and stir-fry until golden, about 2 minutes. Add miso, oyster sauce, and sugar, and stir to blend.

2. Add vegetables and jalapeño, and stir-fry until vegetables are crisp-tender, about 12 minutes. Serve hot.

 

I personally prefer vegetables like sweet peas, cauliflower, carrots, bell pepper, young baby corn and broccoli. No yellow miso but substitute with young sliced ginger. Omit the jalapeno. You can also add mock meat, bought from the Asian markets. 

Vegetarian meat is usually a store-bought frozen or refrigerated food made from soy, wheat gluten, vegetables or a combination of those three main ingredients. 

 

Creamy vegetarian Alfredo spaghetti with frozen peas and sweet corn is just so fabulous. I loved using butter instead of olive oil.

[McKay]

2 hours ago, New World Explorer said:

We have guests coming for dinner to our place tomorrow and one sister is vegetarian ...

My wife is a at loss and simply does not know what to prepare for her

I "suggested" carrots ..and almost got smack!

 

HELP? Any simple ideas? (apart from carrots or raw celery? LOL)

The last time I prepared a meal for vegetarians I made an eggplant lasagna that gave everyone diarrhea. I'm probably not the best source for recipes on this one.

[daydream]

 

https://www.thekitchn.com/recipe-vegetable-biryani-rice-recipes-from-the-kitchn-178018

 

[Naturale]

On 6/6/2019 at 12:56 AM, tarcamion said:

I am sorry but that seems to be a big simplification and over-interpretation of the Bible. What time in Jewish history do you refer to? What other cultures were back then apart from the agriculture ones? What does it mean they had everything in abundance? Does it refer to livestock too? So if Jehovah allowed eating unclean animals He wanted bad for us?

I was referring to  life under Gods law.  Jehovah kept Israel separate from the unbelieving peoples around them. They received direction from God himself.  He gave them the Mosaic Law that outlined a healthy diet, a strict sanitary code and sound moral and religious principles. God therefore promoted the health and spiritual welfare of Israel.   They had a standard of life that was far superior to that of the surrounding nations.  The prosperity of the nation would have brought honor to Jehovah, constituting a powerful proof to surrounding nations that he was the “Enricher” (1Sa 2:7) of his people and that the Law he had given to them was beyond compare in securing the welfare of all concerned.
 

[EccentricM]

11 hours ago, New World Explorer said:

 

HELP? Any simple ideas? (apart from carrots or raw celery? LOL)

Some easy things would be pasta, salads, coleslaw, potatoes (mashed, roasted or baked, that way you can also put fillings in like coleslaw or cheese), vegetable pies, rice dishes (like rice and peas), curry sauces that don't contain animal products, chips (fries), garlic bread, pizza with non-meat toppings...

Edited June 7, 2019 by EccentricM

[New World Explorer]

28 minutes ago, EccentricM said:

Some easy things would be pasta, salads, coleslaw, potatoes (mashed, roasted or baked, that way you can also put fillings in like coleslaw or cheese), vegetable pies, rice dishes (like rice and peas), curry sauces that don't contain animal products, chips (fries), garlic bread, pizza with non-meat toppings...

I almost got another “smack” from my wife when I suggested serving meat from vegetarian cows... grass fed....I said and run!

 

[Naturale]

12 hours ago, New World Explorer said:

We have guests coming for dinner to our place tomorrow and one sister is vegetarian ...

My wife is a at loss and simply does not know what to prepare for her

I "suggested" carrots ..and almost got smack!

 

HELP? Any simple ideas? (apart from carrots or raw celery? LOL)

https://deliciouslyella.com/2017/07/03/sweet-potato-lemon-grass-coconut-curry/