2024 Governing Body Update #2

[Amygdala]

I just did a bit of research as we are currently on vacation, but interesting to read that the Quran doesn’t specifically say beards are required, but for many Muslims, it is more tied into the religious and traditional cultures that encourage men to grow them. Also interesting to read the significance of red beards.

 

But facts aside, if someone was once heavily involved in such practices, there could indeed be emotional or traumatic associations, and I could understand their complete avoidance of personally wearing one regarding such. But sounds like the brother who had such connections is ok with others wearing them. The truth can set one free.

 

https://religionsfacts.com/the-symbolism-and-significance-of-a-red-beard-in-islam/

 

 

2. Religious Reasons for Men Growing Beards in Islam In Islam, growing a beard is often seen as a religious duty and a sign of adherence to Islamic principles. The Quran does not explicitly command the growing of beards, but various Hadith (sayings and actions of the Prophet Muhammad) emphasize the importance of maintaining facial hair. For many Muslims, growing a beard is an act of religious devotion and a reflection of their commitment to their faith.

 

4. Individual Choice and Expression Misconception: Some misconceptions suggest that individuals with red beards are compelled to grow them due to religious obligations or societal pressures.

Clarification: The decision to grow a red beard, or any beard for that matter, is a personal choice and expression of one’s identity, faith, or cultural heritage. It is not mandated by Islam as a religious obligation for all men. Muslims have different interpretations and practices regarding facial hair, and it is important to acknowledge and respect the autonomy of individuals in making personal grooming choices.

 

[Sepie93]

 
Wow, that’s a first for me. Can I ask what kind of background led this brother to become extremely bothered by beards or be as a possible stumbling block?

Good question.

The brother is indeed from a majority Muslim country and was religiously very involved in Islam.
Although it's true the Quran does not say anything about the beard, the Hadiths do. The hadith are the sayings and actions of Mohammad, as narrated by various people.
Muslims are to follow the most "authentic" Hadiths. One of these says, quote:

The Prophet (ﷺ) said:
"Cut the mustache short and let the beard grow."
[sahih al-Bukhari 5893]

Sahih al-Bukhari is considered one of the most authentic. So, due to these hadiths, many Muslims grow beards for religious reasons.
And the more extreme ones will shave their mustage, but grow a beard.

This style is still a HUGE no-no for brothers. At least... if you don't wanna look like ISIS and scare people away

(One time, I was in a supermarket with a brother from a country where extremism was very common. We entered like normal. Then we saw some guys standing there. This brother took my arm and pushed me out of the shop, urging me to come after him. So I was a little confused and asked: "What's up!?" He answered: "Did you not see his mustage?" "No". He said: "This is the extreme style." This poor brother was just being afraid and obviously traumatized)



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[carlos]

8 hours ago, Sepie93 said:

These updates, though, are situations where you have people just dislike it, but there might also be a potential point where people get stumbled, like the situation in 1 Corinthians 8.

 

Agreed. We wouldn't intentionally hurt our brothers or create issues with them. But that works both ways. Those with a weaker conscience have to respect that others feel differently.

 

Meat at Romans 19, that you mentioned, is a perfect example. Meat was only meat, and idols are nothing, as Paul noted. However, for a Christian who had previously practiced those religious rituals, the idea of eating that meat was disgusting. This is similar to the example I mentioned about entering a church. For me a church is just an old building with interesting history and architecture. But for a sister who used to participate in the rituals of that church, coming into that building would hurt her conscience. It's important to take into account their conscience in this case.

 

On the other hand, having a beard or wearing trousers instead of a skirt is just a personal decision. If someone dislikes it, it's just a personal preference, there is no scriptural reason for it. GB members who have appeared publicly with beards were not afraid that they might stumble some.

 

[truce]

Needs repeating for emphasis: Governing Body Members who have appeared publicly with beards (at least 3 for now) were not afraid that they might stumble some. Thanks, Carlos.

 

This issue of stumbling and weaker vs stronger conscience goes both ways. Some people seem to always want to look for reasons to be stumbled anyway, regardless of what you say or do not say or do.

 

Psalm 119:165: "Abundant peace belongs to those loving your law, and for them there is no stumbling block."

 

Romans 14;2,3; 15:7: "One man has faith to eat everything, but the man who is weak eats only vegetables. Let the one eating not look down on the one not eating, and let the one not eating not judge the one eating, for God has welcomed him. So welcome one another, just as the Christ also welcomed you, with glory to God in view."

Edited March 31 by truce

[Heejune]

On 3/29/2024 at 7:32 PM, Sepie93 said:

As appointed brothers, we want to serve the friends. In other words, we want to put our own interest aside in order to be there for the friends.
Maybe these brothers are wrong in their feelings, but that doesn't annul our personal responsibility to still take their stance and feelings into consideration.

 

I understand the good intention behind the BOEs decision to make a rule for individuals in your cong.
 

I just hope you understand making a rule can stumble some others as well, who do not see it appropriate for elders to make a rule for individuals. 
 

 

[blue-jay]

And how about those that might be stumbled if others don't follow along exactly with what the GB said?

If some might be stumbled either way, why not just do what the GB says, instead of adding rules and risk stumbling those that would like to apply exactly what the announcement was.

Some might feel discouraged and as if though the elders are lording it over them with extra rules and micromanagement. 

[Amygdala]

7 hours ago, Sepie93 said:

This poor brother was just being afraid and obviously traumatized)

 

Understandable. Of course we can’t guarantee that none of our brothers will be terrorist (like the former one in Hamburg), but as a friend, by being a listening ear to this brother is good. He knows you personally and knows now that you are growing a beard and knows you won’t do anything extremist in style.

 

You can reassure him, as it is with the rest of our brothers who wear beards, that our dress and grooming doesn’t represent an idealistic viewpoint, but is just a matter of taste. That there are still some who choose not to wear beards, and in the end that we are all united, peaceful brothers and sisters and the way we choose to dress or groom ourselves is not tied to any extremist or rebellious thinking. Maybe he’ll come around in time, or maybe he’ll even need counselling. But prayer will definitely soothe his mind.

 

Also the extremist, Osama Bin Laden type of beards , or the extensively long beards is, as far as I know, not the type the brothers are choosing to wear, so hopefully he doesn’t even get opportunity to get triggered within our loving brotherhood.

Edited March 31 by Amygdala

[Amygdala]

22 hours ago, Amygdala said:

But in the end, part of our training is dealing with the imperfections of others, enduring setbacks from others and yet keeping our joy, and also helping them see the positives in you being a fellow, faithful servant of Jehovah, or the positives in life in general,

 

We may need to do this with some in the congregation who have personal reasons for disliking beards, or the wearing of no ties or skirts. It could be some avoid certain individuals, or pass down negative judgments, so we all have to be patient in working with such ones. It is new and for some will take getting used to see it becoming the norm. Some areas (like I mentioned while traveling) may hardly make any changes, whereas some areas may all be about change, so we all need to be flexible. Keep smiling, avoid debates, keep faithful and be an example for others within our localities with our actions and speech. 

[Abigail]

First foray into "slacks".

[Pjdriver]

On 3/24/2024 at 8:22 PM, carlos said:

I had this same conversation with a sister yesterday. She seemed to think the standard of dress is something worldly people set: If the queen of Spain can attend an important event wearing elegant slacks, then that's the standard. That viewpoint is wrong.

 

The standard is whatever the congregation feels it's proper attire for the platform.

 

Carlos, ultimately, our choice of dress is greatly influenced by the 'who's who' in the world, or even in your own area. I don’t mean they directly dictate our choices, but we observe the latest trends along with what we consider modest by scriptural principles, and voilà: we have a dress code.  It’s the world’s trends along with modesty that determine our code.

When in Rome (Worldly place) do as the Romans do (in moderation)

Edited April 1 by Pjdriver

[trottigy]

https://www.npr.org/2024/04/01/1241984004/ties-necktie-biden-obama-clinton-presidents-fashion

 

Three presidents and not a necktie in sight. Are ties out of fashion?

 

YEP!

 

Quote

Looking at those pictures, I was really fascinated by the different gradations of formality that we saw, particularly in the pictures of the presidents with the celebrity podcasters or some of the younger guests, because you still have a hierarchy there. There's the collared shirt versus the uncollared shirt. There's the matching jacket and pants versus the mismatched jacket and pants. There were dress shoes and tennis shoes. So there was still a generational divide there, and there was still sort of a formal hierarchy.

 

[SAHarrington]

On 3/24/2024 at 12:42 PM, jwhess said:

Our Body of Elders met (as instructed) and one of the points we discussed was  the dress for congregation assignments or duties.  In the end our COBE summarized the differences between having "meeting parts" from the stage or platform and having "meeting assignments or duties" in support of the program.

 

We agreed on microphone attendants. A/V personnell, Zoom attendants, Entry or door greeters and the congregation attendants.  It took a few minutes of discussion to analyze the platform or stage attendant since he was going to be "on stage" for part of his assignment.  In the end, our COBE  asked us to consider the outcome that would allow us to be unaminous in our decision.  he wanted to be sure that whenever anyone in the hall asked for direction in application of the new understanding of our "dress-code", that we would all give the same, considered and unanimous decision.

 

So we agreed that unless the person had a part "on stage" teaching, demonstrating, reading or counseling (regular meeting parts), he or she could wear the modified dress outlined in the update.  We decided not to try to add any anything additional to the list given by the GB.  We decided not to 'stretch' the instructions to cover any duty not specifically mentioned.

 

We have the the Circuit Assembly in 3 weeks and the visit of the CO in 4 weeks.  If anything needs adjusting we will be instructed soon.

 

First time commenting here!  Hello everyone!  Just wanted to say how much I appreciated how your BOE did this.  Makes a lot of sense, demonstrates love, and I hope most bodies follow the same example - which I'm sure they did/will.  Thank you brother!

[DancesWithWife]

3 hours ago, Pjdriver said:

Carlos, ultimately, our choice of dress is greatly influenced by the 'who's who' in the world, or even in your own area.

Not in my case. Many of the brothers in our area wear brown shoes. Not me. Many have a shade of blue suit that a brother in Portland sold to the brothers. Not me. I have always dressed in conservative manner. My style of dress is influenced by colors and styles I like not what others are wearing.  I am not given into fashion or what others are wearing. 

[Parale]

 

[carlos]

4 hours ago, Pjdriver said:

It’s the world’s trends along with modesty that determine our code.

 

Well, of course we live in society. The way people dress around us has an influence on us.

But if the elders in a congregation decide the standard of dress for the platform is a jacket and a tie, that's the standard for that congregation, not whatever the queen, the president of the pope wears.

[Parale]

10 minutes ago, carlos said:

The way people dress around us has an influence on us.

 

Yes, and the expression the Governing Body used was "if that is the standard of dress in that land."

 

Thus the GB said, in part, that:

 

When a sister has a part on the program, she should wear a skirt or a dress if that is the standard of dress in that land.

 

When a brother has a part on the program, he should wear a tie and a jacket if that is the standard of dress in that land.

 

When visiting Bethel, it would be appropriate for brothers to wear a tie and a jacket and for sisters to wear a skirt or a dress if that is the standard of dress in that land.

 

Edited April 1 by Parale

[computerwiz]

Man, when we get that "strange" direction from the GB to help us survive the GT, I hope we have time to pick it apart piece by piece like this...  

[Tortuga]

12 minutes ago, computerwiz said:

Man, when we get that "strange" direction from the GB to help us survive the GT, I hope we have time to pick it apart piece by piece like this...  

Agreed. I am very concerned about some of the attitudes and thinking processes that are being developed as we 'question' what the GB meant and what elders in other congregations are doing. 

Edited April 1 by Tortuga

[LeolaRootStew]

48 minutes ago, computerwiz said:

Man, when we get that "strange" direction from the GB to help us survive the GT, I hope we have time to pick it apart piece by piece like this...  

 

46 minutes ago, Tortuga said:

Agreed. I am very concerned about some of the attitudes and thinking processes that are being developed as we 'question' what the GB meant and what elders in other congregations are doing. 

 

I have a feeling the "strange" message will be: 

 

Quick! Shave your beards and put on a tie - even the sisters!

 

[jwhess]

6 hours ago, SAHarrington said:

 

First time commenting here!  Hello everyone!  Just wanted to say how much I appreciated how your BOE did this.  Makes a lot of sense, demonstrates love, and I hope most bodies follow the same example - which I'm sure they did/will.  Thank you brother!

Welcome Sthephen.  I hope you enjoy the chance to share in our thoughts and conversation.  Be sure to post your thoughts often.  We look forawrd to what you think and say.

[blue-jay]

1 hour ago, computerwiz said:

Man, when we get that "strange" direction from the GB to help us survive the GT, I hope we have time to pick it apart piece by piece like this...  

Exactly.

This is a good opportunity to practice obedience. For the publishers and the elders. 

The congregation needs to follow what the elders say even if we feel they might be wrong. Jehovah blesses obedience. 

But the elders have a huge responsibility shepherding the sheep. They wouldn't want to frustrate the flock or lord it over them or add on rules that miss the idea or sense of the directions.

Right now it's just clothes. It's not that deep lol. But soon it will be more serious. Our very safety or lives may be involved. 

Being faithful in what is least and learning to listen and follow directions, even if we personally don't like it, is very important!

[Robinson]

On 3/29/2024 at 12:19 PM, Cheeks said:

Similar to your post I’ve found that someone somewhere at some point will always get offended at anything/everything. I only disclose to select ones when I go to concerts, I don’t play music when using my vehicle for service, I have stopped discussing sports at the Kingdom Hall. It’s unfortunate that it comes to that but at the end of the day it saves a lot of unneeded stress.

I’ll probably take some heat for this but I’ll say it anyway: I’ve found that those that are always offended at everything have way too much time on their hands.

This is true. I've learned to discern what is an actual "offense" or just a "difference of opinion/background/upbringing." The way I look at it is, "What bible principle/scripture/GB info are they referring to?" And then, I ask myself if Jehovah will approve of my decision.

 

I can't satisfy everyone who thinks they are taking offense when it's truly them just having a difference of opinion. Otherwise, we'd all be exactly alike.

[Sofia]

Interesting 🤔 

https://www.npr.org/2024/04/01/1241984004/ties-necktie-biden-obama-clinton-presidents-fashion

Edited April 2 by Sofia

[Pjdriver]

On 4/1/2024 at 4:27 PM, carlos said:

 

Well, of course we live in society. The way people dress around us has an influence on us.

But if the elders in a congregation decide the standard of dress for the platform is a jacket and a tie, that's the standard for that congregation, not whatever the queen, the president of the pope wears.

If the president and business men etc...all stopped wearing ties....so would we.   True? 

You’re talking about GB just decides where and when we wear what the world wears.

 

Notice they alway qualify what to wear with:  if that is the standard of dress in that land. (in the world).  We don’t start the trends..... the world does.

Edited April 2 by Pjdriver

[Pjdriver]

27 minutes ago, Sofia said:

Interesting 🤔 

https://www.npr.org/2024/04/01/1241984004/ties-necktie-biden-obama-clinton-presidents-fashion

That was more or less a party to raise $$$$$ Not real formal.