The Mysterious Coronavirus Spreading Worldwide

[Dustparticle]

30 minutes ago, Dages said:

Religious gatherings are a problem... they generate COVID clusters. That's how it got big in France in the beginning : a big protestant church meeting...

 

BtG will get what she deserves.

The brothers was on the ball with this  in the beginning and that is don’t meet together at the halls. Jehovah’s spirit is on the move.

[carlos]

On 7/30/2020 at 9:15 PM, Bob said:

I don’t think it’s correct to simply attribute the spread to people flaunting the rules.

Almost 1000 of our brothers and sisters died from COVID. Were they ignoring precautions and flaunting the rules?

This reasoning is very wrong. Following that same logic, since some people die in accidents despite having their seatbelt on, that means that it's useless to use seatbelts.

 

In Victoria, in the example Lucy gave, the virus had been eradicated. All outbreaks had been controlled, people suspect of being sick put in quarantine and no new infections were being reported for several weeks. Then some idiots broke the rules and reintroduced the virus. Had they obeyed the authorities, Victoria would still be a virus free area.

 

No measures taken by governments are the perfect solution, but they are useful. Unfortunately the virus will go on spreading and some will die. But when safety measures are obeyed, the consequences are greatly reduced. When some idiots ignore safety measures, many more people are infected.

Edited August 1, 2020 by carlos

[Godskingdomrules]

4 minutes ago, carlos said:

On 7/31/2020 at 5:15 AM, Bob said:

I don’t think it’s correct to simply attribute the spread to people flaunting the rules.

Almost 1000 of our brothers and sisters died from COVID. Were they ignoring precautions and flaunting the rules?

This reasoning is very wrong. Following that same logic, since some people die in accidents despite having their seatbelt on, that means that it's useless to use seatbelts.

 

In Victoria, in the example Lucy gave, the virus had been eradicated. All outbreaks had been controlled, people suspect of being sick put in quarantine and no new infections were being reported for several weeks. Then some idiots broke the rules and reintroduced the virus. Had they obeyed the authorities, Victoria would still be a virus free area.

 

No measures taken by governments are the perfect solution, but they are useful. Unfortunately the virus will go on spreading and some will die. But when safety measures are obeyed, the consequences are greatly reduced. When some idiots ignore safety measures, many more people are infected.

Yes but you cannot control people especially with in this world where people have selfish motives or people have no option but to keep working despite being sick with covid 19 to provide for there families, or on the other spectrum people not obeying social distancing rules because they are just over it and don't care because they are stupid!

The fact is you cannot fully control people.

I agree with you on obeying the superior authorities to reduce the risk but the fact is there is always going to be that idiot.

Just like there is always going to be someone or some country that doesn't want peace and wants war, you cannot control it.

Lets God's Kingdom Come.

[Shawnster]

20 minutes ago, Godskingdomrules said:

The fact is you cannot fully control people.

 

Yet, masks are not controlling people nearly as much as other countries Covid measures.  In Bolivia, for example, they are limiting which days a person can travel based upon their last name.  If you name is in one part of the alphabet, then you can go to the stores and into town on this day, those in the second part of the alphabet can go on the second day, and so on.  Even then the hours allowed out are limited. Any other time you are confined to home.   Masks, in comparison, are not that bad.  

[trottigy]

It's interesting to see that Romans 13:1 doesn't say, "Let every person be obedient to the superior authorities" instead it says, " Let every person be in subjection to the superior authorities"

 

there is an interesting difference in obedience and submission. This is from the IT book

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1200003292#h=5:0-6:626

 

Quote

From this it can be seen that obedience, as expressed in the original languages of the Scriptures, depends first upon hearing, that is, receiving information or knowledge (compare Lu 12:47, 48; 1Ti 1:13), and then upon one’s submitting to the will or desire of the one who speaks or otherwise expresses such will or desire. Submission, in turn, is dependent upon recognition of that one’s authority or right to ask or require the response indicated, as also upon the hearer’s desire or willingness to satisfy the will of such one. As indicated by the Greek peiʹtho and a·pei·theʹo, belief, trust, and confidence also enter in.

We see the difference being - not just "doing what's asked" but "having a desire or willingness to satisfy".

 

Telling others, "I'll do what the the government (the "superior authorities" ) asks, but it is stupid and unnecesary." Fits the category of obedience, but not submission. It's tough to be in submission and neutral, but Jehovah can help us. We just have to view this as part of our assignment from Him. And as long as it isn't against God's will (and this CLEARLY isn't or the slave wouldn't be encouraging us to do it) we can do it AND be positive about it.

[Bob]

7 hours ago, carlos said:

This reasoning is very wrong. Following that same logic, since some people die in accidents despite having their seatbelt on, that means that it's useless to use seatbelts.

I never said following the rules was "useless" my brother. I said that despite following the rules, people still catch Covid. So my point is that you can follow the rules and still die of the disease, just like you can wear seatbelts and still die in car accidents.

 

So my point was this. Deaths from Covid doesn't mean people weren't following the rules just like deaths in car crashes doesn't mean people weren't wearing seatbelts.

 

Just for emphasis - I NEVER said following the rules was useless.  So my reasoning wasn't wrong because that's not the reasoning I was employing.

 

Good points, tho!

Edited August 1, 2020 by Bob

[Bob]

@carlos So basically, people catching and dying of COVID is random. It just like when people unfortunately die of car accidents. When we see a car accident death, we don't automatically assume that the person was speeding, not wearing a seatbelt, or "flaunting" traffic laws. 

 

But with COVID, we treat it totally differently. When someone dies of it, we assume they were ignoring prevention protocols. But its all random. The safest drivers die in car accidents each year. Same with Covid. Its just time and unexpected events. 

Edited August 1, 2020 by Bob

[BLEmom]

9 minutes ago, Bob said:

When someone dies of it, we assume they were ignoring prevention protocols.

I don’t think that is correct. Yes, the inclination to wonder if people are following protocol is there. Why?  Because there is so much controversy over doing so. We hear reports all the time of people defying the government, and discussions on whether masks wearing is really helpful or not. I don’t think that means everyone assumes others are not obeying the laws.
 

it’s incredibly sad when the doctors, people who stay home  and other people who do follow protocol get this virus. A sister in our hall thought she had gotten Covid and couldn’t understand how since she never goes anywhere. But her husband does. He has to work. It ended up that she had strep. Still, the fact that he brought that home to the family shows how random and difficult any disease is. Instead of people railing against the safety measures, they should spend effort in figuring out how best not to bring disease into the home. Covid or whatever. 
 

Following the seatbelt analogy, we wear them knowing it can save our life but it doesn’t always. It doesn’t mean the seatbelt laws are wrong though.

 

Another law that people have gotten upset over is riding in the back of pick ups. We used to do that all the time, especially as kids.  And yet at some point, the government saw the numbers on people dying from accidents related to riding that way. Many have enacted laws to outlaw the practice. Some were upset and yelled about their rights and the long history they have had being safe in the practice. Still, we know the danger is there.
 

You put the safety measures in place knowing full well it won’t protect all but it will protect a lot if not most. 

[Bob]

11 minutes ago, BLEmom said:

I don’t think that is correct. Yes, the inclination to wonder if people are following protocol is there. Why?  Because there is so much controversy over doing so. We hear reports all the time of people defying the government, and discussions on whether masks wearing is really helpful or not. I don’t think that means everyone assumes others are not obeying the laws.
 

COVID has generated strong, unwavering opinions on both sides. New laws have always generated debate and defiance, so that's expected. But people treat their opinions like fact with this. If you don't treat COVID exactly the way they do, you're doing it wrong. 

 

 

11 minutes ago, BLEmom said:

it’s incredibly sad when the doctors, people who stay home  and other people who do follow protocol get this virus. A sister in our hall thought she had gotten Covid and couldn’t understand how since she never goes anywhere. But her husband does. He has to work. It ended up that she had strep. Still, the fact that he brought that home to the family shows how random and difficult any disease is. Instead of people railing against the safety measures, they should spend effort in figuring out how best not to bring disease into the home. Covid or whatever.

It is random. That's also exactly what I said in the post above. 

[Tortuga]

2 hours ago, Bob said:

@carlos So basically, people catching and dying of COVID is random. It just like when people unfortunately die of car accidents. When we see a car accident death, we don't automatically assume that the person was speeding, not wearing a seatbelt, or "flaunting" traffic laws. 

 

But with COVID, we treat it totally differently. When someone dies of it, we assume they were ignoring prevention protocols. But its all random. The safest drivers die in car accidents each year. Same with Covid. Its just time and unexpected events. 

Actually I do assume that someone that dies in a car accident did something wrong or they were hit by someone that did something wrong. If all of the drivers obeyed all of the laws all of the time, there would be less vehicle accidents and deaths. A good motto is to watch out for the other guy.

 

As you pointed out, that's also true for people that refuse to follow the current pandemic protocols, they are figuratively running red lights and speeding. Killing innocent people. 

[dove]

2 hours ago, Bob said:

@carlos So basically, people catching and dying of COVID is random. It just like when people unfortunately die of car accidents. When we see a car accident death, we don't automatically assume that the person was speeding, not wearing a seatbelt, or "flaunting" traffic laws. 

 

But with COVID, we treat it totally differently. When someone dies of it, we assume they were ignoring prevention protocols. But its all random. The safest drivers die in car accidents each year. Same with Covid. Its just time and unexpected events. 

Often the ‘safe’ driver is killed not because he wasn’t driving safely, but because an ‘unsafe’ driver wasn’t observing the safety laws, and caused an accident that could have been prevented if Both were following safety laws..

Edited August 1, 2020 by Dove

[Luisabola]

23 minutes ago, Mephibosheth said:

Actually I do assume that someone that dies in a car accident did something wrong or they were hit by someone that did something wrong. If all of the drivers obeyed all of the laws all of the time, there would be less vehicle accidents and deaths. A good motto is to watch out for the other guy.

 

As you pointed out, that's also true for people that refuse to follow the current pandemic protocols, they are figuratively running red lights and speeding. Killing innocent people. 

That’s not strictly true that everyone that dies in a car accident did something wrong or was hit by someone not following the rules. I know you said there’d be ‘less’ accidents if everyone stuck to the rules, so I think you know this, but I mean you could be driving along obeying all the rules when a tree randomly falls on your car, or you have a stroke and collapse at the wheel, or an earthquake happens and you crash... sorry for the morbidity but it’s true. Everyone can follow the rules and you can be in a car crash where you still die.
 

Same with this virus. 
 

Obviously, everyone should take every precaution necessary in order to avoid contracting the virus. We love life, so we try to be careful with it. But not everyone can stay at home self isolating all the time. We need to work, or live with people who work. Etc etc. So this virus might spread, even to those who obey all the rules too. 
 

We know we won’t get true freedom from illness and death until the new system. Let it come soon please. 

[AH173]

20 hours ago, Mephibosheth said:

You may be right and there is nothing that will stop it from eventually affecting everyone. It may be like cancer, there isn't a cure but we still take reasonable precautions. It is important to stay positive, stay united, be encouraging and not develop a defeatist attitude about it. 

Yes.

 

Indeed.

 

From all the encouragement we get from the FDS --with 5, yes FIVE updates-- we need to be encouraging and not develop a defeatist attitude.

 

Let's stay in battle formation. Please

[dove]

48 minutes ago, Mephibosheth said:

Actually I do assume that someone that dies in a car accident did something wrong or they were hit by someone that did something wrong. If all of the drivers obeyed all of the laws all of the time, there would be less vehicle accidents and deaths. A good motto is to watch out for the other guy.

 

As you pointed out, that's also true for people that refuse to follow the current pandemic protocols, they are figuratively running red lights and speeding. Killing innocent people. 

I didn't see your comment til now or I wouldn't have repeated the same thought in mine, but it was a good one anyway if you use it as an analogy to wearing masks and observing safe distancing..really bears repeating I think...

[carlos]

3 hours ago, Bob said:

@carlos So basically, people catching and dying of COVID is random. It just like when people unfortunately die of car accidents. When we see a car accident death, we don't automatically assume that the person was speeding, not wearing a seatbelt, or "flaunting" traffic laws. 

 

But with COVID, we treat it totally differently. When someone dies of it, we assume they were ignoring prevention protocols. But its all random. The safest drivers die in car accidents each year. Same with Covid. Its just time and unexpected events.

Bob, you are right that not all victims of covid19 are due to not obeying the law. Yet in the particular case we were discussing that was exactly what happened. Lucy explained there were no new cases in that region and interstate borders were closed. Had the law been observed, there was no way anyone could become infected. Yet some people in a different region ignored safety measures, got infected, then crossed the border illegally into Victoria, bringing the virus back with them.

 

So all the terrible consequences, people infected and some dying, businesses closed, lockdown, they are not just a random occurrence. They are specifically the fault of those three idiots who thought they didn't need to obey the law.

 

I do not agree at all either that people becoming infected and dying happens randomly. Randomly would mean that your chances of being infected are the same no matter which measures you take, which is the same as saying that safety measures are useless. But that's not true. Someone who follows safety measures is much more unlikely to catch the disease than someone who doesn't.

 

Edited August 1, 2020 by carlos

[blacc]

34 minutes ago, carlos said:

Bob, you are right that not all victims of covid19 are due to not obeying the law. Yet in the particular case we were discussing that was exactly what happened. Lucy explained there were no new cases in that region and interstate borders were closed. Had the law been observed, there was no way anyone could become infected. Yet some people in a different region ignored safety measures, got infected, then crossed the border illegally into Victoria, bringing the virus back with them.

 

So all the terrible consequences, people infected and some dying, businesses closed, lockdown, they are not just a random occurrence. They are specifically the fault of those three idiots who thought they didn't need to obey the law.

 

I do not agree at all either that people becoming infected and dying happens randomly. Randomly would mean that your chances of being infected are the same no matter which measures you take, which is the same as saying that safety measures are useless. But that's not true. Someone who follows safety measures is much more unlikely to catch the disease than someone who doesn't.

 

Three idiots, hmmmmmmmm.... Let's watch it, please. 

[Bob]

2 hours ago, carlos said:

I do not agree at all either that people becoming infected and dying happens randomly. Randomly would mean that your chances of being infected are the same no matter which measures you take, which is the same as saying that safety measures are useless. But that's not true. Someone who follows safety measures is much more unlikely to catch the disease than someone who doesn't.

I guess what I mean is that anyone can catch Covid. Anyone. That's what I mean. But I don't really understand the desire to attempt to nail me down on something I never said. I never, EVER said nor suggested or insinuated that safety measures are useless. Not one time, brother. 

 

So I do respectfully ask for that suggestion to not be attributed to me. 

Edited August 2, 2020 by Bob

[Tortuga]

9 minutes ago, Bob said:

I guess what I mean is that anyone can catch Covid. Anyone. That's what I mean. But I don't really understand the desire to attempt to nail me down on something I never said. I never, EVER said nor suggested or insinuated that safety measures are useless. Not one time, brother. 

 

So I do respectfully ask for that suggestion to not be attributed to me. 

I apologize. I thought you were suggesting that the precautions were generally useless and that everyone would get sick eventually. 

[Bob]

5 minutes ago, Mephibosheth said:

I apologize. I thought you were suggesting that the precautions were generally useless and that everyone would get sick eventually. 

Oh I get it. I know how that can be understood so don't worry brother. I know my views are divergent from most simply because I think about it a little differently, so I do expect a level of misunderstanding.

 

Trust me, no love is lost for you or anyone here. 

[➕👇 ꓤꓱꓷꓠꓵ🎵Tone]

18 Million marker worldwide.

12 Million outcomes (2/3)

688,939 reported losses (6%)

6 Million currently fighting symptoms 

 

Old (Downunder) Tone

 

 

 

Edited August 2, 2020 by Maʹher-shalʹal-hash-baz
Add pics

[GoldAussieGirl]

Feeling very sorry for our fellow Aussie brothers & sisters in VIC I hope you are all coping ok 😔

 

https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/amp.9news.com.au/article/2e508cdb-6cfe-4a6f-ad80-52af9601435a

 

'Shock and awe': Victoria declares state of disaster, Melbourne curfew and stage four restrictions. 
 

Victoria will declare a state of disaster and stage four restrictions will be imposed from 6pm tonight, including a police-enforced curfew in metro Melbourne.

Under "shock and awe" state of disaster provisions, an 8pm - 5am curfew will be imposed by police and soldiers across Melbourne, starting tonight and continuing daily for at least six weeks.

The state of disaster declaration means Victoria Police and others have been granted additional powers, and the government can also suspend various acts of the parliament.

There have been 671 new coronavirus cases recorded in Victoria overnight - the state's second worst day on record - and a further seven deaths.

 

 

Edited August 2, 2020 by GoldAussieGirl

[carlos]

9 hours ago, Bob said:

I guess what I mean is that anyone can catch Covid. Anyone. That's what I mean. But I don't really understand the desire to attempt to nail me down on something I never said. I never, EVER said nor suggested or insinuated that safety measures are useless. Not one time, brother. 

Bob, you are right that no one is completely protected from this virus, except maybe those who have already had it.

 

I didn't mean to misrepresent your words, I am only trying to understand what your point is. Mine is that following safety measures offers a degree of protection. Not following them puts people at danger.

[AH173]

21 hours ago, trottigy said:

It's interesting to see that Romans 13:1 doesn't say, "Let every person be obedient to the superior authorities" instead it says, " Let every person be in subjection to the superior authorities"

 

there is an interesting difference in obedience and submission. This is from the IT book

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1200003292#h=5:0-6:626

 

We see the difference being - not just "doing what's asked" but "having a desire or willingness to satisfy".

 

Telling others, "I'll do what the the government (the "superior authorities" ) asks, but it is stupid and unnecesary." Fits the category of obedience, but not submission. It's tough to be in submission and neutral, but Jehovah can help us. We just have to view this as part of our assignment from Him. And as long as it isn't against God's will (and this CLEARLY isn't or the slave wouldn't be encouraging us to do it) we can do it AND be positive about it.

Fantastic points Bro. Jerry.

 

I am glad that there are ones like you that can put what I feel in words I want to say.

[Bob]

3 hours ago, carlos said:

Bob, you are right that no one is completely protected from this virus, except maybe those who have already had it.

 

I didn't mean to misrepresent your words, I am only trying to understand what your point is. Mine is that following safety measures offers a degree of protection. Not following them puts people at danger.

You’re cool brother. As I told Richard, I know my thoughts here are unconventional and we miss each other’s point sometimes. It’s human.
 

But if I can be fully honest, there is a theme in the media and the world at large, even among us, that people who contracted COVID “aren’t taking it seriously”. Every time someone shares their covid story, the FIRST thing out of the mouths is “you need to take this seriously”. Its really, in my opinion, an insult to people who are taking this seriously. 

 

Most people are taking this seriously. 
 

I think that thinking is a sort of disassociation attempt from people who have covid. They want to feel the if they take all the precautions, even to an extreme degree, they will be completely protected. 
 

So logically, whoever gets covid weren’t taking the precautions and are not taking this seriously. 
 

To me its divisive - splitting people into two dichotomous camps - those who take it seriously, and those who don’t take it seriously. 
 

You get Covid, no one cares about the circumstances. You weren’t taking it seriously. You don’t catch, you were taking it seriously.

 

Just one man’s opinion, however. 

Edited August 2, 2020 by Bob

[Shawnster]

1 hour ago, Bob said:

But if I can be fully honest, there is a theme in the media and the world at large, even among us, that people who contracted COVID “aren’t taking it seriously”. Every time someone shares their covid story, the FIRST thing out of the mouths is “you need to take this seriously”. Its really, in my opinion, an insult to people who are taking this seriously. 

Don't we experience the same thing, though, whenever we hear a local needs talk that centers on conduct, especially if there is a serious problem in our congregation or circuit?  The counsel isn't directed at us or anyone who is continuing to remain loyal to Jehovah, yet we sit there and listen to the same chastisement as those who are doing wrong.  

 

1 hour ago, Bob said:

Most people are taking this seriously. 

 

On this we disagree.  Most of the people I've seen in my daily travels were not wearing masks prior to the Ohio governor's mandate last week (or going on two weeks now).   Plus, I'm sure you've likewise seen the news reports of crowded bars, pubs, and even beaches where people are not social distancing nor wearing PPE.  The county fairs in Ohio were originally planned to continue provided appropriate measures were taken but they now have all been placed under restrictions because people were not taking this seriously.   Honestly, I've not seen any location where the majority are taking this seriously.

 

On top of that, as we've seen in other cases throughout history, even if it's only the minority that are not taking this seriously, disaster can happen.  Typhoid Mary was just (supposedly) one person.  The amount of asymptomatic people is probably small when compared to the whole, yet those asymptomatic people can wreck havoc if they are careless.

 

1 hour ago, Bob said:

So logically, whoever gets covid weren’t taking the precautions and are not taking this seriously. 
 

To me its divisive - splitting people into two dichotomous camps - those who take it seriously, and those who don’t take it seriously. 
 

You get Covid, no one cares about the circumstances. You weren’t taking it seriously. You don’t catch, you were taking it seriously.

 

Just one man’s opinion, however. 

Honestly I've not seen any accusations or assumptions about whether a Covid victim was taking this seriously or not.  Personally, I've never given the first thought to being judgemental when I hear someone contracted Covid.  I've only been judgemental when reading Facebook comments of those who present an attitude or speak as if all this is stupid, a hoax, government overreach, a seizure of our rights and liberties, and so forth...  

 

On the other hand, aren't we like that with anyone in any accident?  You read a news article about a traffic accident and many times there will be a mention that "alcohol was not involved."  Why is that?  Is there an automatic assumption that a person in a traffic accident was drunk?  What about wearing a seat belt?  If a news article about a traffic accident mentions seat belts, does that mean there is someone somewhere judging the accident and assuming the driver or passengers were not taking safety measures?  

 

This happens all the time.  Why should Covid be any different?