The Mysterious Coronavirus Spreading Worldwide

[BenJepthah]

47 minutes ago, Bob said:

This is the crux of my viewpoints. From a pure health standpoint, yes and no. Lockdowns in particular are not a solution in my view. Masks only work if you're wearing an effective mask (not a scarf, or a bandana, or a tshirt; neither of which are designed to block microscopic viral particles).

 

Brief view on lockdowns: They merely delay the spread. As soon as you let people out, they interact, and infect each other, reigniting an outbreak. Locking down sick people with the healthy, particularly where ventilation is poor or shared ventilation systems (like apartment buildings) exacerbates community spread. Locking down has indirect health issues, like obesity, depression, isolation, and obviously some lose their jobs and businesses so financial ruin is a serious threat to both physical and mental health. There are serious trade offs to this that cannot be ignored or downplayed. 

 

My view on Masks: Certain masks work well, others work poorly. Scarfs/bandanas/old towels or tshirts were not designed to block viral particles from being ejected. Medical masks probably are the best. But a big downside is that people tend to feel safe and take more risks. For example, literally Monday, I was walking down my sidewalk (unmasked because it was hot and I was by myself) and two ladies put on their mask to walk by me. Back in March, an unmasked couple almost walked into the street to avoid walking by me that close.

 

So I am all for balance. 

 

 

From a strictly medical perspective I endorse the above statements.. 

[BLEmom]

I heard an npr news report this morning on how Asia, in particular Japan, looks on at the US arguing about masks. They are completed bemused by the fact there is even a controversy about it. Their culture has accepted the validity of mask wearing for quite a while.  The report stated that they even wear them outside walking and working.  They are very community minded and are willing to go through the extra effort to protect their people. 

 

And for a little funny....

 

[Loopy]

Wow!  The U P is really moving up on cases.

 

Alger county went up and now has 4 cases

 

Marquette went up 5 cases to 94. 😳😳😳😳

 

19 people have died

 

 

 

UPPER PENINSULA POSITIVE CASES (DEATHS)
Alger County 4 (+1)
Baraga County 5 (-1)
Chippewa County 19 (-1)
Delta County 30 (+2) (4 deaths)
Dickinson County 20 (2 deaths)
Gogebic County 17 (+2) (1 death)
Houghton County 26 (+1)
Iron County 8 (1 death)
Keweenaw County 2
Luce County 3
Mackinac County 9
Marquette County 94 (+5) (11 deaths)
Menominee County 48 (+2)
Ontonagon County 1
Schoolcraft County 7

[Bob]

21 minutes ago, BLEmom said:

I heard an npr news report this morning on how Asia, in particular Japan, looks on at the US arguing about masks. They are completed bemused by the fact there is even a controversy about it. Their culture has accepted the validity of mask wearing for quite a while.  The report stated that they even wear them outside walking and working.  They are very community minded and are willing to go through the extra effort to protect their people. 

 

And for a little funny....

 

Perhaps they didn't have their top health official telling people they don't need to wear masks in the beginning of a pandemic... just saying...

[Hope]

22 minutes ago, Bob said:

Perhaps they didn't have their top health official telling people they don't need to wear masks in the beginning of a pandemic... just saying...

Changing a viewpoint and direction after accumulating new information- is that wrong? Or do we keep saying, "but you said.. " regarding the older information ad infinitum? 

[Loopy]

If these people are looking THIS far ahead, imagine what the organization is thinking!!!

 

https://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2020/07/15/pasadena-tournament-of-roses-parade-2021-canceled/?fbclid=IwAR3cOftAicClILfWfzGJ_PaAiQn4e_L8coKMehKQDrKp-DIdBBRtGFoXhec
 

PASADENA (CBSLA) — The 2021 Tournament of Roses Parade has being canceled because of the COVID-19 pandemic.

[hatcheckgirl]

1 hour ago, BLEmom said:

I heard an npr news report this morning on how Asia, in particular Japan, looks on at the US arguing about masks. They are completed bemused by the fact there is even a controversy about it. Their culture has accepted the validity of mask wearing for quite a while.  The report stated that they even wear them outside walking and working.  They are very community minded and are willing to go through the extra effort to protect their people. 

 

And for a little funny....

 

 

I posted the same many many many pages back. No other country has arked up as much as the USA. Bad leadership, maybe, but also a culture deeply ingrained with their rights above all else. 

 

I mentioned China earlier because despite their huge population, they do have this pandemic under control. Why? Japan, Taiwan and Singapore all are very crowded and have worn masks for ages, not just this pandemic. Social distancing would be even harder in places such as these crowded metropolis’s. But they have contained it better than the USA. 

 

I know China isn’t forthcoming with information @Bob, but that wasn’t the point of my post. Look at what has worked. Look at was hasn’t. The world is bigger than just USA. And we are not by any means through this as outbreaks are still occurring due to returned travellers from overseas. That is the situation in Australia now, which had no new community transmissions and now has a blowout of cases and deaths rising again in Victoria and possibly now NSW. This isn’t going to end soon, so just stick to the best health advice we can get, don’t assume they are wrong, so long as it isn’t contradicting the Bible then obey. It is that simple.

[Bob]

1 hour ago, Hope said:

Changing a viewpoint and direction after accumulating new information- is that wrong? Or do we keep saying, "but you said.. " regarding the older information ad infinitum? 

I was sort of being a little tongue in cheek there (should have made that clear). But since you asked, if you don't know for sure, its best to stay away from dogmatic statements. They were making dogmatic or scientifically factual statements early on about masks, and FACTS aren't open to change. 

[Bob]

8 minutes ago, hatcheckgirl said:

I mentioned China earlier because despite their huge population, they do have this pandemic under control. Why? Japan, Taiwan and Singapore all are very crowded and have worn masks for ages, not just this pandemic. Social distancing would be even harder in places such as these crowded metropolis’s. But they have contained it better than the USA. 

 

I know China isn’t forthcoming with information @Bob, but that wasn’t the point of my post. Look at what has worked. Look at was hasn’t.

I got you. Thanks. But how can we confidently say China has it under control when we know they tried to cover it up? For example, with the Catholic Church coverup scandals, why would anyone believe they have it under control just because they are releasing low abuse numbers?

 

Trust has to be earned at this point, and that takes time considering their history. So them putting our low numbers isn't enough to have earned it.

Edited July 15, 2020 by Bob

[BenJepthah]

1 hour ago, Bob said:

Perhaps they didn't have their top health official telling people they don't need to wear masks in the beginning of a pandemic... just saying...

Japan has always had a strong “ conscientiousness culture “. Well before this pandemic it was not uncommon to see people wear medical masks. They even developed urban legends around it.

[blacc]

11 minutes ago, Bob said:

I was sort of being a little tongue in cheek there (should have made that clear). But since you asked, if you don't know for sure, its best to stay away from dogmatic statements. They were making dogmatic or scientifically factual statements early on about masks, and FACTS aren't open to change. 

Well, so many things that our organization taught as facts or truths have now been adjusted, replaced, edited, refined, or simply done away with. So maybe the experts thought they were scientifically proven facts, but they were wrong. Therefore we do what is reasonable and proper. We are not naive persons who put faith in every word. All the more reason to take all necessary measures, even if it may seem we are being overly careful. A little more carefulness doesn't hurt. I hope I survive this pandemic. I will, like Noah, make a huge altar sacrifice of burnt offerings because to me, it's a miracle that we have all been protected from this virus so far. Some who followed the precautions still caught it and some didn't survive it. How I have been able to survive it and be healthy up to this point, despite having an underlying medical condition that affects my immunity, makes me baffle. I think it's Jehovah protecting me miraculously. I hope this doesn't sound conceited. I know I have taken risks, enough to have caught this virus. Jehovah must be working in my behalf, somehow. 

Edited July 15, 2020 by blacc

[BenJepthah]

12 minutes ago, hatcheckgirl said:

 

I posted the same many many many pages back. No other country has arked up as much as the USA. Bad leadership, maybe, but also a culture deeply ingrained with their rights above all else. 

 

I mentioned China earlier because despite their huge population, they do have this pandemic under control. Why? Japan, Taiwan and Singapore all are very crowded and have worn masks for ages, not just this pandemic. Social distancing would be even harder in places such as these crowded metropolis’s. But they have contained it better than the USA. 

 

I know China isn’t forthcoming with information @Bob, but that wasn’t the point of my post. Look at what has worked. Look at was hasn’t. The world is bigger than just USA. And we are not by any means through this as outbreaks are still occurring due to returned travellers from overseas. That is the situation in Australia now, which had no new community transmissions and now has a blowout of cases and deaths rising again in Victoria and possibly now NSW. This isn’t going to end soon, so just stick to the best health advice we can get, don’t assume they are wrong, so long as it isn’t contradicting the Bible then obey. It is that simple.

We see it in the media a lot when people get violent Over it. But I’m not yet convinced about the real life encounters. We will see in the next few day as “ The people of Walmart” come to terms with it. 

[Hope]

9 minutes ago, Bob said:

I was sort of being a little tongue in cheek there (should have made that clear). But since you asked, if you don't know for sure, its best to stay away from dogmatic statements. They were making dogmatic or scientifically factual statements early on about masks, and FACTS aren't open to change. 

No... but the understanding of those facts *does* change. I'm no medical professional but even I know that medical information/ protocols can change with each new bit of data.  There are all sorts of treatments for things that were once state of the art that are now viewed as old fashioned, ineffective or even dangerous. We all grow and move on with new info- even the medical field. We don't abandon all trust in professionals because they've corrected a previously held understanding. I don't, anyway.

 

The US response has been a dumpster fire circus- mainly because of the immediate political suspicion of the disease. Leaders taking this virus as a personal attack rather than putting themselves on the same side as their citizens and health and safety above all else.

 

There would be no perfect response to this situation- not with selfish, imperfect humans and a virus with unknown capabilities. But having responses based upon if you'd be fired for seemingly not supporting a politician rather than the medical good was bound for disaster. 

[Bob]

40 minutes ago, BenJepthah said:

Japan has always had a strong “ conscientiousness culture “. Well before this pandemic it was not uncommon to see people wear medical masks. They even developed urban legends around it.

Japan is not the US, though. We don’t have a mask wearing culture. 

[Bob]

34 minutes ago, Hope said:

No... but the understanding of those facts *does* change. I'm no medical professional but even I know that medical information/ protocols can change with each new bit of data.  There are all sorts of treatments for things that were once state of the art that are now viewed as old fashioned, ineffective or even dangerous. We all grow and move on with new info- even the medical field. We don't abandon all trust in professionals because they've corrected a previously held understanding. I don't, anyway.

 

The US response has been a dumpster fire circus- mainly because of the immediate political suspicion of the disease. Leaders taking this virus as a personal attack rather than putting themselves on the same side as their citizens and health and safety above all else.

 

There would be no perfect response to this situation- not with selfish, imperfect humans and a virus with unknown capabilities. But having responses based upon if you'd be fired for seemingly not supporting a politician rather than the medical good was bound for disaster. 

Did you see the interview where a member of the task force last Sunday said Fauci doesn’t have the nation’s best interests at heart, that he’s being narrow minded in his approach?

This is his own scientific colleague. So this really isn’t about new information about facts, this is mixed messaging probably on based personal preference, or likely perspective depending on their professional opinions.  
 

If they’re not on the same page, how can you expect the citizenship to be?

 

So I don’t even think there is agreement on many of the facts, let alone how they understand them. 

[Bob]

This is where I think being dogmatic hurts them and us as a whole. There is bound to be public infighting, especially during a very public crisis like this. 

[Hope]

I wonder if being assertive as a professional in anything is the same as being "dogmatic"? Does it depend on how one views the instruction? Or where it comes from?

 

I think people tend to require someone to take a firm stand on frightening or dangerous issues. Being all, "I'm not sure, but maybe we can..." doesn't inspire either trust or obedience. It's better, imo, for a person to speak with authority and confidence, maybe not claim infallibility (which I don't think anyone did) and have the grace to admit when mistaken or wrong.  Then say, "...but here's what we should do now."  I would expect the cooperation of the populace to ensue.

 

It's a rather American phenomenon, I think, to have the idea that every person's opinion on every topic is equally valid and should be considered- and be suspicious of any opinion different to our own. That's why we're rife with conspiracy theories, alt-news and armchair doctors espousing every belief under the sun... and being upset when their beliefs are challenged or even proven to be wrong.   

 

I'm glad that we as Witnesses have a much better view of obedience, revised understandings, superior authorities and love of neighbor.  Don't we? 🤔

[AH173]

6 minutes ago, Hope said:

I'm glad that we as Witnesses have a much better view of obedience, revised understandings, superior authorities and love of neighbor.  Don't we? 🤔

A dedicated and baptized Witness should.

 

[Bob]

3 hours ago, blacc said:

Well, so many things that our organization taught as facts or truths have now been adjusted, replaced, edited, refined, or simply done away with. So maybe the experts thought they were scientifically proven facts, but they were wrong. Therefore we do what is reasonable and proper. We are not naive persons who put faith in every word. All the more reason to take all necessary measures, even if it may seem we are being overly careful. A little more carefulness doesn't hurt. I hope I survive this pandemic. I will, like Noah, make a huge altar sacrifice of burnt offerings because to me, it's a miracle that we have all been protected from this virus so far. Some who followed the precautions still caught it and some didn't survive it. How I have been able to survive it and be healthy up to this point, despite having an underlying medical condition that affects my immunity, makes me baffle. I think it's Jehovah protecting me miraculously. I hope this doesn't sound conceited. I know I have taken risks, enough to have caught this virus. Jehovah must be working in my behalf, somehow. 

Well, when the organization makes adjustments, I just don’t accept them blindly. I verify through the scriptures (like we are encouraged to do and like the Bereans did). 
 

But in my eyes when it comes to this new virus, no science is “settled” - not yet, anyway. Too many changes and contradictions have come too quickly, so I use common sense and make my own mind up, and take smart precautions. 
 

I don’t look for “alternative facts” as no such thing exists, but I search out non mainstream sources. 
 

 

Edited July 16, 2020 by Bob

[Bob]

1 hour ago, Hope said:

I wonder if being assertive as a professional in anything is the same as being "dogmatic"? Does it depend on how one views the instruction? Or where it comes from?

 

I think people tend to require someone to take a firm stand on frightening or dangerous issues. Being all, "I'm not sure, but maybe we can..." doesn't inspire either trust or obedience. It's better, imo, for a person to speak with authority and confidence, maybe not claim infallibility (which I don't think anyone did) and have the grace to admit when mistaken or wrong.  Then say, "...but here's what we should do now."  I would expect the cooperation of the populace to ensue.

 

It's a rather American phenomenon, I think, to have the idea that every person's opinion on every topic is equally valid and should be considered- and be suspicious of any opinion different to our own. That's why we're rife with conspiracy theories, alt-news and armchair doctors espousing every belief under the sun... and being upset when their beliefs are challenged or even proven to be wrong.   

 

I'm glad that we as Witnesses have a much better view of obedience, revised understandings, superior authorities and love of neighbor.  Don't we? 🤔

Hmm.. I think I need to respectfully and graciously clarify my position here, and thanks for being willing to chat. I follow all laws etc. But when it comes to the "grey areas" where discretion and personal choice takes over, I assess my own risk as a person and that of my family, and make choices from there. 

 

That's basically what we do every day. I know my risk of injury is high when engaging in sports. So I don't play sports. Others have low risks, so they play. Covid is similar. High risk persons tend to shelter in place, no matter if the law doesn't require it. Lower risk persons choose not to. To me there was never anything "frightening" about COVID. I knew nothing about it, so how could it frighten me?

 

That's essentially my position about evaluating risks. I don't mind explaining. 

Edited July 16, 2020 by Bob

[dove]

1 minute ago, Bob said:

Hmm.. I think I need to respectfully and graciously clarify my position here, and thanks for being willing to chat. I follow all laws etc. But when it comes to the "grey areas" where discretion and personal choice takes over, I assess my own risk as a person and that of my family, and make choices from there. 

 

That's basically what we do every day. I know my risk of injury is high when engaging in sports. So I don't play sports. Others have low risks, so they play. Covid is similar. High risk persons tend to shelter in place, no matter if the law doesn't require it. Lower risk persons choose not to.

 

That's essentially my position here. I don't mind explaining. 

May I ask, how exactly do you define low risk, and how do you know you and your family are low risk? Even young, healthy people have gotten infected and died. And even if you truly are low risk, is not wearing a mask not protecting others who may be at higher risk? A mask is most often worn to protect others at any level of risk, not ourselves..

[Bob]

11 minutes ago, Dove said:

May I ask, how exactly do you define low risk, and how do you know you and your family are low risk? Even young, healthy people have gotten infected and died. And even if you truly are low risk, is not wearing a mask not protecting others who may be at higher risk? A mask is most often worn to protect others at any level of risk, not ourselves..

Low risk isn't NO risk. I define "risk" as regards COVID, really in two ways: (1) your risk of dying from it based on your age, and (2) your risk of catching it based on your activity. I operate within that framework. The only way I will be at ZERO risk is if I never leave my house and never come into contact with another human being, so even leaving your home to enter a grocery store puts you at risk, even if its low. 

 

And I'm not sure where your mask comment is coming from. 

Edited July 16, 2020 by Bob

[Ludwika]

1 hour ago, Bob said:

Well, when the organization makes adjustments, I just don’t accept them blindly. I verify through the scriptures (like we are encouraged to do and like the Bereans did). 
 

But in my eyes when it comes to this new virus, no science is “settled” - not yet, anyway. Too many changes and contradictions have come too quickly, so I use common sense and make my own mind up, and take smart precautions. 
 

I don’t look for “alternative facts” as no such thing exists, but I search out non mainstream sources. 
 

 

So when Moses said "we're out of here, make sure you have obeyed Jehovah's instructions, putting the blood on your door posts" , you'd have said "I'm not blindly accepting this" ? Or when Jesus said" when you see... Flee to the mountains", you'd say" hang on a minute, where's the proof? " what's different now? Our survival will depend on obedience to the chanel Jehovah is using today. 

[Bob]

8 minutes ago, Ludwika said:

So when Moses said "we're out of here, make sure you have obeyed Jehovah's instructions, putting the blood on your door posts" , you'd have said "I'm not blindly accepting this" ? Or when Jesus said" when you see... Flee to the mountains", you'd say" hang on a minute, where's the proof? " what's different now? Our survival will depend on obedience to the chanel Jehovah is using today. 

So are you equating a doctrinal adjustment with a life saving COMMAND from Jehovah and Jesus?

 

I think the situation with fleeing Egypt and Jerusalem is a different situation than adjusting an understanding of a bible

account. 

Edited July 16, 2020 by Bob

[Ludwika]

So are you equating a doctrinal adjustment with a life saving COMMAND from Jehovah and Jesus?

No, not really, just talking about trust. That of course doesn't stop one from doing research, that's commendable.

Sent from my WAS-LX2 using Tapatalk