Mass shooting in New Zealand

[hatcheckgirl]

Though of course we must keep our neutrality, I find Bro Nurzat's comments encouraging.  Because it shows us a glimpse of how hard it must be for our brothers and sisters in such oppressed lands, and how they are faithfully enduring regardless.  There are different types of people in satan's system.  Some are definitely more blatantly influenced  by his demeanor, and others, like in our Western lands,  seems to project a veneer of civility.  I wouldn't have a clue what it's like to be a witness in such a society that not only was formerly Soviet, but also is predominantly Muslim.  It is the diametric opposite of ours.

 

We, unfortunately, will see reprisals.  The extremists at either end of the spectrum are goaded by these sorts of atrocities.  For us, let's keep our unity and keep our peace.  How good it is to know Jehovah and serve him in whatever hateful part of satan's world we find ourselves in.

[New World Explorer]

6 minutes ago, hatcheckgirl said:

There are different types of people in satan's system.  Some are definitely more blatantly influenced  by his demeanor

The "shooter" made triple 6 sign with his hand in the court, I saw the picture on the news.

What he was watching and reading  prior to shooting, greatly influenced him to commit such a great atrocity.

How timely is FDS advice, that we must guard our mental powers and read the Bible daily.

 

[Dalbyj]

The media are releasing some of the names of the ones killed and it just happens that I know one of them in a professional capacity. His company works in the same building as my company, and he and I have liaised a few times on building matters such as a leak in the roof etc.
When this first happened I thought that I would not know any of the victims as they are all Muslims - but it turns out that I do. I very much hope that I can meet again him in the new system.

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

[ChocoBro]

Sorry if I'm diverting the subject in a slightly different direction. I read that one of the victims rushed the attacker while he was firing in another direction and tried to tackle him to the ground while everyone else was scramming into one of the two corners of the room. Apparently, he just barely didn't make it in time as the attacker turned to shoot him, but as he collapsed on the gunman he was able to fumble for his gun causing him to lose balance for a few vital seconds, possibly enabling a handful to escape.

 

Given that ISIS announced act of random and misdirected revenge could, theoretically, be carried out in one of our Kingdom Halls, how would we react to such a dire situation? I ask specifically because I completely identify with that man. He was willing to sacrifice his life for his friends and fellow believers. I, too, would be desperate to tackle the lone gunman to prevent more bloodshed among my brothers.

 

EDIT: I just found out his name is Naeem Rashid

 

 

Edited March 16, 2019 by ChocoBro

[hatcheckgirl]

Wow, what a brave man. I guess I don’t know how I’d react in that situation personally. But going on historical records of Jehovah’s servants in the past, he gives his spirit to keep us calm. The brothers and sisters endured much in concentration camps, and if he helped them, he’ll help us too. 

[carlos]

1 hour ago, ChocoBro said:

Given that ISIS announced act of random and misdirected revenge could, theoretically, be carried out in one of our Kingdom Halls, how would we react to such a dire situation? I ask specifically because I completely identify with that man. He was willing to sacrifice his life for his friends and fellow believers. I, too, would be desperate to tackle the lone gunman to prevent more bloodshed among my brothers.

If an armed and violent person entered a KH we would try to calm them down. If they ask for money or other things, we would give them up.

 

But if they tried to hurt our brothers and sisters, of course we would do anything possible to protect them.

[Thesauron]

Given that ISIS announced act of random and misdirected revenge could, theoretically, be carried out in one of our Kingdom Halls, how would we react to such a dire situation? I ask specifically because I completely identify with that man. He was willing to sacrifice his life for his friends and fellow believers. I, too, would be desperate to tackle the lone gunman to prevent more bloodshed among my brothers.
 
EDIT: I just found out his name is Naeem Rashid


 
 

We are unarmed and peaceful, but if attacked, we will do what we can to make sure our brothers are unharmed and secure. Of course, we might, after the fact, still feel like we didn’t do enough.

[Dages]

3 hours ago, Gregexplore said:

The "shooter" made triple 6 sign with his hand in the court, I saw the picture on the news.

What he was watching and reading  prior to shooting, greatly influenced him to commit such a great atrocity.

How timely is FDS advice, that we must guard our mental powers and read the Bible daily.

 

No, I think, he did the "circle game" meme. There are picture of him doing this. It's a kid joke.

[ChocoBro]

1 hour ago, hatcheckgirl said:

he gives his spirit to keep us calm. The brothers and sisters endured much in concentration camps

 

Feels like that's comparing apples to eggs. What happened in the concentraion camps was a government sanctioned form of persecution that ended up violently in individual cases, mostly with the intent of breaking others integrity. This is a random act of indiscriminate violence by some sick individual on a large group. The man came into the mosque guns blazing and didn't make any demands or statements. Nothing like of this magnitude of indiscriminate hate has been carried out on us to the best of my knowledge, though I know that one person in Austria did try in 2009. He wasn't able to fire a single round because he got his leather gloves stuck between the trigger and the trigger guard. After he went to the car to grab a different weapon, some brothers took him to the ground.

I don't know why I would want to keep calm in such a situation.

[Shawnster]

3 hours ago, ChocoBro said:

Given that ISIS announced act of random and misdirected revenge could, theoretically, be carried out in one of our Kingdom Halls,

Doesn't have to be ISIS.  Any gun toting, Witness hating individual could be a threat.  This is why the Organization is training attendants in their vigilance. 

[Thesauron]

Doesn't have to be ISIS.  Any gun toting, Witness hating individual could be a threat.  This is why the Organization is training attendants in their vigilance. 

True. It is enough with any mentally unstable idiot with a weapon. Of course, it doesn’t help if he hears from whatever sources he choses for his information and education that this group, us, is a danger free to harass. But we should not be afraid. (2Ki 6:16; Mt 10:28; Re 2:10)

[dove]

 

8 hours ago, Thesauron said:

It sounds as if there were options, that is, as if he was chosen by someone to commit this in his country. 

 

Expect the unexpected. Where people are afraid and feel threatened, there are always idiots who will resort to violence.

Regarding media, it is a political standpoint these days that they cannot be trusted, and is ‘fake news’ - the enemy, even. Don’t fall for it. Use your good sense instead. Take in reports from several viewpoints.

What was being said was that the gunman himself said in his manifesto that he 'chose' NZ, because of it's remoteness, etc for what he did. It apparently wasn't his original choice.

If you google it there are many instances where this was brought out.

 

I tried to add a link. But if you google it you will find many.They are International and you may find one you believe. They're not publicizing the manifesto but it was quoted in some reports.

Edited March 16, 2019 by Dove

[ChocoBro]

57 minutes ago, Shawnster said:

Doesn't have to be ISIS.  Any gun toting, Witness hating individual could be a threat.  This is why the Organization is training attendants in their vigilance. 

 

Yes but I referred to ISIS in this specific case because according to reports they already announced revenge attacks. Since our meetings are regular and well-visited, and our cart witnessing in arabic language has not gone unnoticed, I would expect a KH to be a viable target in case they wanted to target a Christian gathering. Sending a gunman into a Church could be a futile endeavour, since those are mostly empty except during Easter and Christmas maybe.

[Shawnster]

As Christians we do well to constantly remind ourselves on Jehovah's view and his promises for the Kingdom.  Notice this Watchtower:

 

Quote

 

*** w03 6/1 pp. 13-15 “Do Not Be Afraid or Be Terrified” ***
Christian Neutrality Versus Terrorism
6 Jehovah’s Witnesses are well-known for their political neutrality. While most people may be willing to accept this position in times of peace, they become less tolerant when extraordinary circumstances arise. Often, fear and uncertainty brought on by war arouse strong sentiments of nationalism. This may make it difficult for some to understand why anyone would be reluctant to support popular national movements. True Christians, nevertheless, know that they must obey Jesus’ command to be “no part of the world.” (John 15:19; 17:14-16; 18:36; James 4:4) This requires that they maintain neutrality in political or social matters. Jesus himself set the proper example. Considering his perfect wisdom and outstanding abilities, he could have made a fine contribution to the human affairs of his day. Yet, he refrained from getting involved politically. At the beginning of his ministry, he flatly rejected Satan’s offer of rulership over all the kingdoms of the world. Later, he decisively avoided a draft for political office.—Matthew 4:8-10; John 6:14, 15.

7 The neutral stand taken by Jehovah’s Witnesses should not be misunderstood to mean that they support or condone acts of violence. For them to do so would belie their claim of being servants of “the God of love and of peace.” (2 Corinthians 13:11) They have learned how Jehovah feels about violence. The psalmist wrote: “Jehovah himself examines the righteous one as well as the wicked one, and anyone loving violence His soul certainly hates.” (Psalm 11:5) They are also aware of what Jesus said to the apostle Peter: “Return your sword to its place, for all those who take the sword will perish by the sword.”—Matthew 26:52.

8 Although history clearly shows that counterfeit Christians have often resorted to “the sword,” that is not true of Jehovah’s Witnesses. They refrain from all such activity. The Witnesses faithfully obey the injunction of Romans 13:1, 2: “Let every soul be in subjection to the superior authorities [governmental rulers], for there is no authority except by God; the existing authorities stand placed in their relative positions by God. Therefore he who opposes the authority has taken a stand against the arrangement of God; those who have taken a stand against it will receive judgment to themselves.”

9 Since terrorism is so evil, however, should not Jehovah’s Witnesses be doing something to help combat it? Yes they should, and they are. First of all, they refrain from any such activity themselves. Second, they teach people Christian principles that when followed eliminate violence in all its forms. Last year, the Witnesses spent 1,202,381,302 hours helping people to learn this Christian way. This was not time wasted, for as a result of this activity, 265,469 persons were baptized as Witnesses of Jehovah, thus showing publicly their categorical rejection of violence.

10 Additionally, Jehovah’s Witnesses recognize that they of themselves can never rid the world of evil. That is why they place their unqualified trust in the one who can—Jehovah God. (Psalm 83:18) Despite sincere efforts, humans cannot bring an end to violence. The inspired Bible writer forewarns us about our time, “the last days,” and says: “Wicked men and impostors will advance from bad to worse, misleading and being misled.” (2 Timothy 3:1, 13) Viewed from this standpoint, human prospects for winning the battle against evil are less than favorable. On the other hand, we can rely upon Jehovah to remove violence totally and permanently.—Psalm 37:1, 2, 9-11; Proverbs 24:19, 20; Isaiah 60:18.

 

 In the face of such evil it can be very difficult for us to remain neutral.  Without thinking about it, we could easily develop an "us vs. them" attitude.  We could even paint some aspects of Babylon the Great as worse than others.  For example, it's easy to have more hatred toward the Islamic religions right now because of terrorism but we should not forget that all of Babylon the Great is guilty of heinous crimes.  For centuries Christendom also has stained her hands in the blood of innocents.  Back in my childhood the terrorists that were setting off bombs and killing innocent civilians thought of themselves as "good Catholics" (although their terrorist campaigns were not fueled by religious ideologies).  As we're seeing in the news of late the Catholic leadership has been guilty of many heinous immoral crimes.  

 

None of Babylon the Great is innocent and they all have been and will receive negative judgement from Jehovah.  We should not allow Satan's machinations to persuade us to violate our neutral stand because one member of Babylon the Great is acting more heinous than any other at a particular moment in time.

[Thesauron]

 
What was being said was that the gunman himself said in his manifesto that he 'chose' NZ, because of it's remoteness, etc for what he did. It apparently wasn't his original choice.
If you google it there are many instances where this was brought out.
 
I tried to add a link. But if you google it you will find many.They are International and you may find one you believe. They're not publicizing the manifesto but it was quoted in some reports.

Yes, I saw that. He made it sound like he had many choices - he’s a local guy after all, and some media made it sound like he was connected to some larger alt-right movement. What is true is that there are alt-right idiots all around the world. (Some of them hate Jews, some are Islamophobic. Most are just plain xenophobic. They think of themselves as warriors for white supremacy, I think of them as idiots.) Some of them talk on various forums. Breivik published his manifesto on a well-known forum, and this NZ idiot copied him. They might even have corresponded some. But it seems to be an ideological principle among them not to have a centralised organisation.

[Thesauron]

 
Yes but I referred to ISIS in this specific case because according to reports they already announced revenge attacks. Since our meetings are regular and well-visited, and our cart witnessing in arabic language has not gone unnoticed, I would expect a KH to be a viable target in case they wanted to target a Christian gathering. Sending a gunman into a Church could be a futile endeavour, since those are mostly empty except during Easter and Christmas maybe.

We should not worry too much about that. Mostly, these groups just talk and want attention. Go to the Kingdom Hall in peace. If there’s a viable threat, the authorities will make it known, and the brothers will act accordingly.

[Ahuvah]

I think, here in New Zealand, this is a profound event for different reasons than it would normally be in other parts of the world.

 

First of all, we need to, here on JWTalk, stop making it about specific groups, because as already pointed out focusing on specific groups who are targeted in this instance, means its a distraction from other groups that could cause just as much harm.

 

But what is different here is, New Zealand has always been seen as everyone's little sibling, everyone moves to New Zealand from well known Hollywood Icons through to diverse groups as is seen in this event. Why? Because we have little by way of harmful racism, we accept everyone into our lifestyle no matter their ethnic background - (a FEW activist notwithstanding - certainly not a perfect country by any means).

 

Now, interestingly, this type of position we have found ourselves in is detrimental spiritually, because New Zealanders for a long time and this spills over to the brotherhood, have lived life with our heads in the sand ... even in the truth we hear of atrocities overseas but it doesn't affect us so the empathy is not as profound as it should have been. A materialistic and social types of lifestyles seem to be the norm in pockets of New Zealand.

 

New Zealand has changed in an instant ... as Brother RIchard said in a status update, New Zealand is very sombre, I think they /we have just grown up in an instant, is that good? No. It's like a child losing it's innocence. 

 

Is there a silver lining? Yes. It's time our Brothers and Sisters realized, not just with their ears and eyes, but with their hearts, that we are living in a sinnking system and that endeavours to maintain a lifestyle NZers are accustomed to, is futile.

 

May Jehovah be with us all as more and more of these type of events happen not just here, but around the world.

 

[Cushi]

40 minutes ago, Stormswift said:

But what is different here is, New Zealand has always been seen as everyone's little sibling, everyone moves to New Zealand from well known Hollywood Icons through to diverse groups as is seen in this event. Why? Because we have little by way of harmful racism, we accept everyone into our lifestyle no matter their ethnic background - (a FEW activist notwithstanding - certainly not a perfect country by any means).

Please don’t take this he wrong way but are you a “person of color”? I live in Texas, the southern United States and the racial tension here is strong, at least to me and other persons of color that I have talked to. I especially experience it out in the ministry. I’ve been shocked to hear persons who weren’t “of color” say that there’s no racial problems in Texas. I thought it was easier for them to say that because they are part of a racial group of people that is in a favored position and is far less likely to face racism in their lives. Before I go to any place I ask the people of color who live there or are from there what race relations are like. They would be the ones to know. I don’t mean any of this in a bad way.

[Jothob]

Death toll has just climbed to 50! 😔

https://news.significant-number-killed-in-shootings-at-sky.com/story/live-new-zealand-mosques-11665829?

Edited March 16, 2019 by Jothob

[Ahuvah]

7 hours ago, Brother Jack said:

Please don’t take this he wrong way but are you a “person of color”? I live in Texas, the southern United States and the racial tension here is strong, at least to me and other persons of color that I have talked to. I especially experience it out in the ministry. I’ve been shocked to hear persons who weren’t “of color” say that there’s no racial problems in Texas. I thought it was easier for them to say that because they are part of a racial group of people that is in a favored position and is far less likely to face racism in their lives. Before I go to any place I ask the people of color who live there or are from there what race relations are like. They would be the ones to know. I don’t mean any of this in a bad way.

Yes, I'm from the Ngati Tahu Tribe of Maori. Now what I said was ... was we don't have the harmful racism there is in other countries, undercurrents? Yes - most certainly, but there isn't segregation in general here, we are or used to be pretty much one people, until that is an issue surfaces then you start to see Satan's world ... but every day life ... but Racism doesn't occur with just colour of skin ... it occurs when one race feels they are above another ... it could be english verses NZ born potentially, doesn't need to be because our skin is different. We seem to have an ongoing bickering with the Australians, but it is for the most part in jest and in fact we feel very close to our Australian Neighbours both secularly and in the organization. 

[Cushi]

9 minutes ago, Stormswift said:

Yes, I'm from the Ngati Tahu Tribe of Maori. Now what I said was ... was we don't have the harmful racism there is in other countries, undercurrents? Yes - most certainly, but there isn't segregation in general here, we are or used to be pretty much one people, until that is an issue surfaces then you start to see Satan's world ... but every day life ... but Racism doesn't occur with just colour of skin ... it occurs when one race feels they are above another ... it could be english verses NZ born potentially, doesn't need to be because our skin is different. We seem to have an ongoing bickering with the Australians, but it is for the most part in jest and in fact we feel very close to our Australian Neighbours both secularly and in the organization. 

Thanks. Yes, I thought I remembered you said you were from a Maori Tribe. I heard the Maori people are treated much better in New Zealand than the aboriginals of Australia. I read that Aboriginal men in Australia have the highest suicide rates in the world. It’s really sad.

[Dalbyj]

Today in FS we were out in the country, and we had some good talks with the people we visited. Even the ones who said "No" said it kindly and gently - it is very unusual to go a whole day without at least one person being a little abrupt, but that just didn't happen today.

The sister I was partnered with was a little negative at the start of the day, and I had to steer some of our conversations into a more positive channel - but by the end of the day she was feeling much better and we finished with one of her return visits, which ended up being a really lovely experience for both of us. On our way back into town she said that she had considered cancelling this morning as she had been feeling very down and upset about the attacks, but now she is really glad that she came out with the group. Jehovah is really strengthening us all at this difficult time.

[ChocoBro]

On 3/16/2019 at 3:01 PM, Dages said:

No, I think, he did the "circle game" meme. There are picture of him doing this. It's a kid joke.

This whole thing is a joke, though not the one you are referring to. The media is saying things like

 

Quote

A suspect in Friday’s mass shootings at two mosques in Christchurch, New Zealand, appeared to flash a “white power” sign during his first court appearance on Saturday.

 

The "funny thing" is that this isn't a white power sign at all, it is a 4chan insider that refers to an orchestrated trolling campaign / prank where members "flooded Twitter and other social media websites...claiming that the OK hand sign is a symbol of white supremacy,” as part of a campaign dubbed "Operation O-KKK" - read about that here in wikipedia

 

As always, the media is proving to be helplessly clumsy and ignorant of internet meme culture in this subject. The OK sign is NOT and never was a white power sign.

 

This guy was all about memes and cynical references. At the beginning of the massacre live-stream, he played on his playlist a song well-known in alt-right internet meme culture as "SERBIA STRONG / REMOVE KEBAB" which is actually a Serbian song of unknown origin that praises Karadzic and the Serbian struggle for "freedom". On one of the shooters gun, he had written the words "KEBAB REMOVED". His initial words before he started the massacre, "Remember lads, subscribe to pewdiepie" also an utterly unconnected internet meme

 

What matters about all this is that it starts giving a more detailed picture about what actually went on in the head and heart of the perpetrator. It indicates that hate was not as much the motivation for this horrific deed as indifference and cynicism, maybe disdain coupled with a large portion of gallows humour. The comments on videos on youtube pertaining to the massacre as well as the new memes that have popped up on the internet in the past few days reflect this exact attitude. An attitude of complete indifferent cynicsm, completely disconnected from humanity pervades the comments. From sarcastic quotes on Sadiq Khans "part and parcel" statement in the wake of the London terror attacks to kebab removal memes, the scary thing is you can't even call this thing "hate". It is worse than that.

 

People keep mentioning Anders Behring Breivik, but Breivik, at least in my opinion, mass-murdered out of hate and out of political motivation, this guy Tarrant, at least in my opinion at the moment, murdered just to be "trolling for the lulz"

 

For a very interesting read on the subject, I recommend this article:

https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2019/03/the-shooters-manifesto-was-designed-to-troll/585058/?fbclid=IwAR1nthaHDFes7AJQVJVpphnps_zVFV3JYInm2EdVQdK6TlP5cuBtZpgmJS0

 

 

[hatcheckgirl]

https://www.sbs.com.au/news/morrison-pleads-for-end-to-mindless-tribalism-announces-55-million-safety-upgrades-for-places-of-worship

 

In a speech to the Australia-Israel Chamber of Commerce in Melbourne, Mr Morrison announced $55 million for safety upgrades that will give priority to religious schools and places of worship.

 

The grants will be available for CCTV cameras, lighting, fencing, bollards and alarms.  

 

Interesting.

[Ahuvah]

Most interesting Lucy.

 

A lot will be vocal about taxpayers money going into religion ... it could be very interesting.