What Is happening in Russia Like Really!!!

[Shannie]

I was absolutely sickened by the article..on jw.org

Was it really necessary  to knock out the brothers teeth and physically assault both wives pulling their hair and dragging them and to try to put a bottle in the brothers butt..omg

what in the hell is wrong with people….

omg this is just to much all because we are Jehovah witnesses I just don’t understand….sick world 🌍 absolutely disappointed and disturbing and disgusting 

makes me wonder what we will go through in the future… during the Great Tribulation and persecution time..

 

very very disturbing and terrible times ahead.. my husband said he is not going down without a fight he refuses to sit back and watch me his wife and the kids physically assaulted and beat.. I don’t know what to say about this…this again I’m in shock…

 

Edited to add link to article - Shawn  https://www.jw.org/en/news/jw/region/russia/Russian-Officers-Assault-Two-Married-Couples/

 

 

Edited October 15, 2021 by Shawnster

[jwhess]

As the GB Update said, the pandemic is not the worst thing to happen to humans and it won't the the last.  Harder times are ahead.

 

Just imaging (briefly) what Satan would like to do to you if God had not restrained him.

 

Jehovah promises "life-saving acts" for our group, his servants as a whole but not necessarily for every individual in the group.  But for the faithful, he does promise the opportunity to live in Paradise with the possibility of everlasting life.  And the personal test on all of us...will we pray for those persecuting us and ask Jehovah to forgive them?

[Tortuga]

4 hours ago, Shannie said:

what in the hell is wrong with people….

Good question, however once a person is in hell, or the grave, they are dead and nothing is wrong with them. What an interesting expression.....

[computerwiz]

37 minutes ago, Tortuga said:

Good question, however once a person is in hell, or the grave, they are dead and nothing is wrong with them. What an interesting expression.....

I'm getting to see you're a really funny brother....  

 

But yeah, it's sad, sick, and twisted.  And more and more I hear Invader Zim's words in my head: "This world is just begging to be destroyed!!!"

 

We must keep them in our prayers constantly, and beg Jehovah to let his Kingdom come!!!  With the way people are getting, it is easy to see how we will not feel sorry at all for those destroyed at Armageddon.  Rather, we will feel relief.  It is sad that that is where the human race is headed, but it is indeed heading there fast!  Justice will be served.  But as @jwhess said, we must try very hard to have the mindset to pray for those persecuting us.  Ask to open their eyes to their actions, their heart to their conscious, and let them be overcome with guilt.  Maybe then they can change and be saved.  And in turn, provide relief to our brothers....  

[Android89]

Yeah seriously the punishment does not fit the crime at all! I can see them doing that to murderers or rapists, but to be so brutal for everyday LAW-ABIDING citizens that don’t vote. And they are not just rough around young people, but also to the elderly as well, it’s disgusting. And I don’t know the details or how true this is(so correct me if I am wrong) but the persecution started being the Russian Orthodox Church don’t like Jehovah’s Witnesses, and since there close with the government they told them there extremists. All this suffering and persecution from a Christian church that is supposed to be about love and forgiveness, it is just crazy.

[Thomas Walker]

1 hour ago, Android89 said:

I can see them doing that to murderers or rapists, but to be so brutal for everyday LAW-ABIDING citizens that don’t vote.

I hate to say this, but JW's in Russia aren't law abiding. Under Russian Law, we're extremists. They hit our brothers the same way they attack a potential suicide bomber. A policy that is ridiculous, but even that was prophesied.

 

JW's never try to affect change by affecting government policy. It can't work that way because laws can't change minds, or soften hearts. In most cases, government is the problem. That's the whole point of the sovereignty question. Respecting the authorities when not in conflict with scriptural commandments is a major part of being a Witness. In Russia, brothers have all the responsibilities of being honest, law abiding citizens, and none of the protections that affords.

 

But we don't try to convert nations, we preach to individuals. Every day, a Russian Officer of the law dresses in full riot gear and mask, and tackles a little old grandmother. They have to be asking why. They have to know what they're doing.

 

The roman centurions who were permanently shackled to Paul must have been in for the full court press. This is the modern equivalent of that. How we respond to unfairness and violence is no small witness.

[BLEmom]

9 hours ago, Shannie said:

very very disturbing and terrible times ahead.. my husband said he is not going down without a fight he refuses to sit back and watch me his wife and the kids physically assaulted and beat.. I don’t know what to say about this…this again I’m in shock…

It was very fitting that the 2021 convention had the video on not responding to violence with violence. It was the one where the brother thought about protecting his son with a gun. 
There many gun wielding brothers in the south. Actions by the authorities like these may test them and their reliance on Jehovah versus on weapons or protecting their families. 

[Shannie]

10 minutes ago, BLEmom said:

It was very fitting that the 2021 convention had the video on not responding to violence with violence. It was the one where the brother thought about protecting his son with a gun. 
There many gun wielding brothers in the south. Actions by the authorities like these may test them and their reliance on Jehovah versus on weapons or protecting their families. 

No weapons just defending ourselves who will stand there and be beat I can’t think of anyone who would 

[Shawnster]

41 minutes ago, Shannie said:

No weapons just defending ourselves who will stand there and be beat I can’t think of anyone who would 

You'll notice the Christians did not fight back. They stood there and took the beating. 

 

 

[Shannie]

1 hour ago, Shawnster said:

You'll notice the Christians did not fight back. They stood there and took the beating. 

 

 

The brothers were handcuffed 

[Doug]

4 hours ago, Thomas Walker said:

 

 Respecting the authorities when not in conflict with scriptural commandments is a major part of being a Witness. 

 

 Every day, a Russian Officer of the law dresses in full riot gear and mask, and tackles a little old grandmother. 

Of course, by saying we "respect the authorities" we mean we "obey" them in a relative and limited sense.

 

We don't have to "respect" them in the sense of endorsing all of their decisions.  In fact, we resist them through the legal systems as far as the Supreme Courts of the land when they threaten our worship.

 

Some of them may try to help us if possible. They're not all bad. But "governments" are squarely opposed to God's rulership.

[Shawnster]

2 hours ago, Shannie said:

No weapons just defending ourselves who will stand there and be beat I can’t think of anyone who would 

*** w90 11/1 pp. 27-28 par. 18 Our Relative Subjection to the Superior Authorities ***

18 When persecution arises because the authority misunderstands the Christian position or because Christendom’s religious leaders have misrepresented Jehovah’s Witnesses to the authority, presenting the facts to the authority might result in an easing of the pressure. Having a mild temper and deep respect, a Christian does not fight back physically against persecutors. He does, however, use every legal means available to defend his faith. Then he leaves matters in Jehovah’s hands.—Philippians 1:7; Colossians 4:5, 6.

https://www.jw.org/finder?wtlocale=E&docid=1990806&srctype=wol&srcid=share&par=26

[Tortuga]

Just now, Shawnster said:

Having a mild temper

So, it's okay to have a temper as long as it's a mild one.? 

[jwhess]

2 hours ago, Shannie said:

No weapons just defending ourselves who will stand there and be beat I can’t think of anyone who would 

Obedience and submission.  Our brothers are dealing with strong convictions.  If an officer of the police say "put your hands behind your back"...we do this.  If they handcuff us in this position we do this.  If they abuse us because we are incapacitated we accept this.  When America had the draft in the 1960-1970s...My Pioneer partner was called up.  He tried to find exemptions and legal alternatives.  they found him guilty and sent a Federal marshal and a State Trooper to arrest him.  He was at work (grocery store) in the vegetable aisle dressed in his white apron.  They marched in, showed the warrant to the manager and grabbed him.  They bent him over the display, handcuffed him with hands behind his back and marched him out of the store with out his coat or belongings.

 

He was legally a criminal on the "run" because he did not complete the required oath-taking ceremony.  If that is what "freedom-loving" American officers do, can you imagine the attitude of those in more totalitarian regimes will attempt.  Did my Pioneer partner resist or fight back? No, of course not.  Did he feel hurt, afraid or certainly embarrassed? Absolutely.  Was he found guilty? Yes he was.  Sentence 2 years in a Federal High Security prison in the Midwest.

 

Every where we acquiesce to official authorities (if we do not perceive a Biblical reason to refuse).  We can use physical defense against criminal attack, muggings, robbery or assault. But when we are charged and the officers use force we can complain to lawyers or officials but it will not arise to a level of personal combat to try to gain freedom or better treatment.

 

The 1991 Awake  made these points.

 

*** g91 7/8 pp. 12-13 Self-Defense—How Far Can a Christian Go? ***
Also, God’s Word commands, ‘Beat your swords into plowshares’ and, “Seek peace and pursue it.” (Micah 4:3; 1 Peter 3:11) How can Christians seek protection in firearms and at the same time live in harmony with the Bible’s requirements? In any case, the attacker is likely to be quicker on the draw than the victim.

Jesus rejected armed resistance. True, he instructed his apostles to carry two swords to the garden of Gethsemane, the place where he would be arrested. But why did he do this? Having weapons, yet not using them, powerfully demonstrated that Jesus’ followers should not resort to carnal weapons. It is noteworthy that having a weapon available, Peter impetuously used it. Jesus strongly rebuked him for this rash act with the words: “All those who take the sword will perish by the sword.”—Matthew 26:36, 47-56; Luke 22:36-38, 49-51.

‘That is all well and good for owning firearms,’ someone may say. ‘But what about learning the martial arts for self-defense, such as judo, karate, and kendo?’ Ask yourself, is not the object of this instruction to fight or hurt others? And is not such training really equivalent to arming oneself lethally? (1 Timothy 3:3) Even practice sessions have resulted in serious injuries and fatalities.

Romans 12:17-19 offers wise advice in this regard: “Return evil for evil to no one. . . . If possible, as far as it depends upon you, be peaceable with all men. Do not avenge yourselves, beloved, but yield place to the wrath; for it is written: ‘Vengeance is mine; I will repay, says Jehovah.’” The Greek word Paul uses for “evil” (ka·kosʹ) could also mean “destructive, damaging.” Hence, Christians are to keep from all thought of vindictively damaging or harming another person.

Rather than impetuously expressing his own wrath, a Christian fully trusts in God, who says of his people: “He that is touching you is touching my eyeball.” In harmony with this, God promises to ‘annihilate the wicked’ in due time.—Zechariah 2:8; Psalm 145:20.
 

 

[BLEmom]

3 hours ago, Shannie said:

No weapons just defending ourselves who will stand there and be beat I can’t think of anyone who would 

I have heard a few others express this thought. 
 

We have to remember that persecution like this is different than a random person attacking you. There are times if we are being attacked, it would be appropriate to fight back in the sense of trying to get away. Even then one must remember that the attacker is way more likely to be ready to kill than we are. There have been experiences of sisters who have even calmly talked a rapist out of harming them. On the other hand, if someone invaded your home, you might have to fight them off to escape. 
Authorities mistreating us is different.  We are subject to them. We will only resist in that we won’t obey a law that violates our relationship with Jehovah. That does not mean we fight them off when attacked. Vengeance is mine says Jehovah. We rely on him to endure what he allows to happen. We know that no matter what, if we obey him, he will take away any affect man does to us. 
 

When you read or watch videos of Jehovah’s people having been mistreated by authorities, you will find that none of them resist or fight back.  

[Avuhe]

11 hours ago, Thomas Walker said:

I hate to say this, but JW's in Russia aren't law abiding. Under Russian Law, we're extremists. They hit our brothers the same way they attack a potential suicide bomber. A policy that is ridiculous, but even that was prophesied.

 

JW's never try to affect change by affecting government policy. It can't work that way because laws can't change minds, or soften hearts. In most cases, government is the problem. That's the whole point of the sovereignty question. Respecting the authorities when not in conflict with scriptural commandments is a major part of being a Witness. In Russia, brothers have all the responsibilities of being honest, law abiding citizens, and none of the protections that affords.

 

But we don't try to convert nations, we preach to individuals. Every day, a Russian Officer of the law dresses in full riot gear and mask, and tackles a little old grandmother. They have to be asking why. They have to know what they're doing.

 

The roman centurions who were permanently shackled to Paul must have been in for the full court press. This is the modern equivalent of that. How we respond to unfairness and violence is no small witness.

What u just said is sad but it's the truth.  We all really need to pray not only for our Russian brothers but Also for ourselves so we can have the resilience to stand firm in the face of grave pressures ahead. 

 

On a lighter note I love your books brother Walker keep bringing them on

[M.J.]

9 hours ago, Shawnster said:

*** w90 11/1 pp. 27-28 par. 18 Our Relative Subjection to the Superior Authorities ***

18 When persecution arises because the authority misunderstands the Christian position or because Christendom’s religious leaders have misrepresented Jehovah’s Witnesses to the authority, presenting the facts to the authority might result in an easing of the pressure. Having a mild temper and deep respect, a Christian does not fight back physically against persecutors. He does, however, use every legal means available to defend his faith. Then he leaves matters in Jehovah’s hands.—Philippians 1:7; Colossians 4:5, 6.

This has to be taken into context. Each case is unique, based on specific circumstances. It's a very tricky judgement call, and it's impossible to address every single scenario that could take place. The sentence in bold does not have any supporting scriptures. (The scriptures cited have nothing to do with physical assault.) The sentence is there to convey the idea that we are not looking for a fight - we are not holding up our fists, as though challenging someone to get in a fight with us. Most articles are written with this focus in mind. For example:

8 hours ago, BLEmom said:

When you read or watch videos of Jehovah’s people having been mistreated by authorities, you will find that none of them resist or fight back.  

These examples are all cherry-picked. They are specifically chosen to make a point about how we need to avoid aggression or retaliation or provocation. 

 

However, @Shannie was referring to a case where the person is clearly going to beat you up. And everytime this topic comes up, we get a lot of brothers making a lot of theoretical comments, but not grounded in reality. Case in point: When conventions are held in person, what do the attendants do if they see someone walk up and start hitting a sister? Do we honestly imagine the male attendants are all just going to stand there and watch? Good grief, common sense. Can you imagine the reproach that would bring on Jehovah? A news report showing able bodied men all just standing by doing nothing as a woman gets beat up? 

 

The principle: the Organization wants you to remember is: Be Peaceable: "If possible, as far as it depends on you, be peaceable with all men." - Romans 12:18.

** Notice that it says, if possible. 

 

The goal: to incapacitate the person so they can no longer harm anyone. The goal is not to take revenge, or cause them pain, though understandably, injury may come as a side effect of trying to incapacitate. 

 

If you want further proof, please check out the last scene in the basement video. Where were the women and children placed? Where are the brothers? Do you see their hands? Look carefully: they are keeping their hands free, and it appears they are ready to make a fist. When you watch this video, what exactly are you imagining is going to happen in the next couple seconds? Do you think the brothers are not going to put up a fight? 

 

(Mods: maybe the OP title can be modified?: Russian brothers attacked & how to respond appropriately to attack?)

[BLEmom]

22 minutes ago, M.J. said:

This has to be taken into context. Each case is unique, based on specific circumstances. It's a very tricky judgement call, and it's impossible to address every single scenario that could take place. The sentence in bold does not have any supporting scriptures. (The scriptures cited have nothing to do with physical assault.) The sentence is there to convey the idea that we are not looking for a fight - we are not holding up our fists, as though challenging someone to get in a fight with us. Most articles are written with this focus in mind. For example:

These examples are all cherry-picked. They are specifically chosen to make a point about how we need to avoid aggression or retaliation or provocation. 

 

However, @Shannie was referring to a case where the person is clearly going to beat you up. And everytime this topic comes up, we get a lot of brothers making a lot of theoretical comments, but not grounded in reality. Case in point: When conventions are held in person, what do the attendants do if they see someone walk up and start hitting a sister? Do we honestly imagine the male attendants are all just going to stand there and watch? Good grief, common sense. Can you imagine the reproach that would bring on Jehovah? A news report showing able bodied men all just standing by doing nothing as a woman gets beat up? 

 

The principle: the Organization wants you to remember is: Be Peaceable: "If possible, as far as it depends on you, be peaceable with all men." - Romans 12:18.

** Notice that it says, if possible. 

 

The goal: to incapacitate the person so they can no longer harm anyone. The goal is not to take revenge, or cause them pain, though understandably, injury may come as a side effect of trying to incapacitate. 

 

If you want further proof, please check out the last scene in the basement video. Where were the women and children placed? Where are the brothers? Do you see their hands? Look carefully: they are keeping their hands free, and it appears they are ready to make a fist. When you watch this video, what exactly are you imagining is going to happen in the next couple seconds? Do you think the brothers are not going to put up a fight? 

 

(Mods: maybe the OP title can be modified?: Russian brothers attacked & how to respond appropriately to attack?)

What example in the first century or modern have you found where Christians fought back against the authorities or persecutors?

[M.J.]

As I said, but I'll repeat, the focus of the scriptures is to emphasize the need to avoid aggression or retaliation or provocation. Jehovah wisely avoided putting something in the Bible that could be used by others to be twisted around and used as a justification to be aggressive, or retaliate or provoke. Therefore it requires reading with discernment. I could ask you where it says not to smoke, or chew tobacco....but it's not there. So instead, we reason on the princples: Please refer to post #17. 

[Shawnster]

12 hours ago, M.J. said:

The scriptures cited have nothing to do with physical assault.

Well, there is the example of our Lord an Savior, Jesus Christ.  He left us a model for us to follow in his footsteps closely.  

 

(1 Peter 2:23) When he was being insulted, he did not insult in return. When he was suffering, he did not threaten, but he entrusted himself to the One who judges righteously.
 

On the night of Jesus death he was beat and whipped at the hands of the legal authorities.  Jesus did not fight back.  He did not resist the beating.  He didn't even resist arrest even though his apostles brought two swords along with them to the Garden of Gethsemane.   In fact, that was Jesus whole point with the object lesson of having swords but choosing not to use them.

 

There is also the example of the apostles, including the apostle Paul.

 

(2 Corinthians 11:21-27) But if others act boldly—I am talking unreasonably—I too act boldly. 22 Are they Hebrews? I am one also. Are they Israelites? I am one also. Are they Abraham’s offspring? I am also. 23 Are they ministers of Christ? I reply like a madman, I am more outstandingly one: I have done more work, been imprisoned more often, suffered countless beatings, and experienced many near-deaths. 24 Five times I received 40 strokes less one from the Jews, 25 three times I was beaten with rods, once I was stoned, three times I experienced shipwreck, a night and a day I have spent in the open sea; 26 in journeys often, in dangers from rivers, in dangers from robbers, in dangers from my own people, in dangers from the nations, in dangers in the city, in dangers in the wilderness, in dangers at sea, in dangers among false brothers, 27 in labor and toil, in sleepless nights often, in hunger and thirst, frequently without food, in cold and lacking clothing.

 

It's easy to imply that the instances where the apostles actually fought or resisted persecution at the hands of the authorities simply were not recorded in the scriptures.  That statement is impossible to prove or disprove.  Instead, all we can do is focus on what is actually recorded in the scriptures.  What is recorded is that in both the Hebrew and the Greek scriptures Christians are admonished to be in subjection to the superior authorities and, as in the example of Jesus, we even willingly submit to being beaten, imprisoned, even put to death by the superior authorities.  

 

That is the key - these persecutions are at the hands of the superior authorities.  The persecution is because we are servants of Jehovah.  This is different than facing a burglar or rapist or mass murderer.  Yet, even in those instances the amount of force a Christian would use to defend themselves would only be enough to give us opportunity to flee. We don't have the right to become Batman and impose vigilante justice.  The defending ourselves does not mean we are necessarily free of bloodguilt if we go beyond defense and actually kill our attacker.  Yes, every situation is different, there is no clear-cut, black and white, one size fits all judgement in such situations.  On the other hand, there is no scripture that says "thou shalt not kill unless thou art being attacked."  We don't have a blanket approval in the scriptures that absolves us of bloodguilt in such a situation. 

 

In answer to Shannie's outrage - yes, these attacks are horrible.  They are reprehensible.  They are a violation of human rights. Jehovah will hold those who have committed these atrocities accountable.  Sadly, because these assaults are being done by the superior authorities and because these attacks are because we are Jehovah's chosen people, our brothers and sisters must endure and they need our prayers as a result.

[retroHelen]

These atrocities are not new. It's also not just against us. I read in other news reports of Russian people going to their local governments to beg to be moved from their government owned apartments near certain Police stations/prisons because they were suffering PTSD and sleep deprivation from endlessly having to listen to the authorities beating and torturing prisoners of all kinds there day and night. They seem to have had centuries of history of brutal authoritarianism against their ordinary citizens or earlier on - peasants -  going unchecked. Pogroms of the past are still going on!

 

Brothers and sisters suffered similar atrocities in Malawi in the 1970s. It was shocking. I find now though that back then it was commented upon in the media and we had letter-writing campaigns that seemed to have more effect. These days the media rarely reports anything that might support a religion. Even human rights charities that used to stand up for us are too embroiled in LGBT+2...etc and likely wouldn't be so interested in helping an organisation that didn't support similar views, even though we don't militate publicly against others' lifestyles.

 

We can only pray that the King of the North & allies gets to "pushing" too far very soon.

 

Their carelessness for their own citizens and surrounding nations they want to annex,  shows also in their uncaring unsustainable destroying of the planet/environment in their race to be top nations and that's the part that is not going unnoticed - what they are doing is threatening  the whole planet.

[M.J.]

21 hours ago, Shawnster said:

Well, there is the example of our Lord an Savior, Jesus Christ.  He left us a model for us to follow in his footsteps closely.  

 

(1 Peter 2:23) When he was being insulted, he did not insult in return. When he was suffering, he did not threaten, but he entrusted himself to the One who judges righteously.
 

On the night of Jesus death he was beat and whipped at the hands of the legal authorities.  Jesus did not fight back.  He did not resist the beating.  He didn't even resist arrest even though his apostles brought two swords along with them to the Garden of Gethsemane.   In fact, that was Jesus whole point with the object lesson of having swords but choosing not to use them.

Jesus Christ had to die. He specifically came to the Earth in order to die to cover our sins. Why would he stop them? On the other hand, did Paul just let himself be killed without appealling, just as Jesus did? Since Jesus is our model to follow closely, did Paul imitate Jesus in this regard? NO (I know we all agree we can appeal to Caesar, but the point I am making is that Jesus did not do this to stop from getting hurt/killed, and Paul did not imitate him in this aspect.)

 

By the way @Shawnster What exactly would you do if you were an attendant at an assembly and a sister was getting beat up? 

 

Edited October 17, 2021 by M.J.

[M.J.]

They do not arm in advance, in anticipation of trouble. But when attacked they may ward off blows and strike in defense, though not in offense.

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1955568?q=self+defense&p=par

 

What Is the Bible’s View?

Should You Defend Yourself?

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/101975647

[Shawnster]

So, Marcy, at what point is it OK to resist the superior authorities?  What do you scriptures support resisting the superior authorities?  What publications mayyo refer to in researching this further? 

 

44 minutes ago, M.J. said:

By the way @Shawnster What exactly would you do if you were an attendant at an assembly and a sister was getting beat up? 

Are they getting beat by the police or by a civilian? You seem to be indicating there is no difference between the two while others here have repeatedly pointed out that a Christian's reaction depends on the attackers. 

 

Odds are of it was the police or military then I'd no longer be an attendant but a fellow prisoner. 

46 minutes ago, M.J. said:

Paul imitate Jesus in this regard? NO (I know we all agree we can appeal to Caesar,

Appealing to Caesar is not the same as physically fighting back, and it appears you acknowledge that.  Let's keep to the topic of physical assault. 

 

On the other hand, Witnesses can and do use legal means to defend ourselves. We can rightly appeal out mistreatment to Caesar.  Unfortunately, if Caesar is also doing the beating, that appeal will likely fall on deaf ears.  Still, JW.org continues to expose these atrocities for all to see and the European Court of Human Rights has gotten involved. Hasn't done much good yet, but we are appealing these crimes the best way we can. 

 

[ReadYourBible]

In times past, one of the articles I read where the authorities were seeking to take a certain member of the congregation or to hurt them, several of the sisters formed a ring around the brother. He was able to slip out a side door and escape. Jesus also employed this method, perhaps not with sisters around him but allowing the confusion of the situation to permit him with a distraction to flee. 

 

In the event it would have caused more harm to those with him, he readily went with them. 

 

I found it interesting the comment about martial arts above, I have more to say about that, but need to cut my response short for now. Immobilizing and fleeing is the purpose of self-defense. Or at least this is what I was taught.