Paris: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire

[Hope]

14 hours ago, Thesauron said:

I felt equally upset when ISIS went around destroying things they felt didn’t belong to their religion. They showed their hatred and lack of knowledge and understanding with ropes and hammers and bombs.

 

Since this was an accidental fire not an intentional destruction, I'm not sure I understand this comparison with ISIS.  

 

But as much as I truly love history, art and architecture, since all of Babylon the Great is false religion and an affront to my Heavenly Father, I'm never going to feel too bad when the buildings and everything associated with them are destroyed.  

 

Like the photos today of Notre Dame - there's a view that looks straight in and you can see the cross over the altar, still there above the rubble.  Just seeing that there is disgusting to me.  It actually lessened the impact of the destruction the fire caused; created a little perspective.  For me, anyway.  That, yes - the cathedral was an amazing feat of human engineering, stamina, artistry, but it was also full of idols and false worship.

 

I look forward to those incredible artisans being resurrected and applying that know-how and reverence to something that honors Jehovah.  Not everything He stands against.

 

[EccentricM]

8 minutes ago, Hope said:

I look forward to those incredible artisans being resurrected and applying that know-how and reverence to something that honors Jehovah. 

Yes, what I look forward to in the new world, is being rid of the ugly Modernist/Postmodern architecture.

Edited April 16, 2019 by EccentricM

[Thesauron]

 
Now I’m not saying we should be rejoicing over the fact that this church has burned. The Bible says we shouldn’t gloat over stuff like that... but I definitely don’t think we should be sad. I certainly am not.
 

Today I’d be as sadden over the unnecessary destruction of any historical building. Caring for our history shows who we are.

In Israel, it is difficult to study any other civilisation but the Israelite one, and Israel has housed many different civilisations. This is because it has only been consider valuable to study civilisations that are well spoken of in the Bible. This means it is difficult to know much about the world they loved in. We know scraps. I’d be happy to be able to know more about their cultures.

[Thesauron]

 
Since this was an accidental fire not an intentional destruction, I'm not sure I understand this comparison with ISIS.  
 
But as much as I truly love history, art and architecture, since all of Babylon the Great is false religion and an affront to my Heavenly Father, I'm never going to feel too bad when the buildings and everything associated with them are destroyed.  
 
Like the photos today of Notre Dame - there's a view that looks straight in and you can see the cross over the altar, still there above the rubble.  Just seeing that there is disgusting to me.  It actually lessened the impact of the destruction the fire caused; created a little perspective.  For me, anyway.  That, yes - the cathedral was an amazing feat of human engineering, stamina, artistry, but it was also full of idols and false worship.
 
I look forward to those incredible artisans being resurrected and applying that know-how and reverence to something that honors Jehovah.  Not everything He stands against.
 

The comparison with ISIS is that they thought that their views gave them the right to destroy our human heritage. We should not rejoice over the destruction of our history, accidental or not. And this building was also full of human history spanning many hundreds of years. Every generation has put their mark on that building in various ways.

[Hope]

18 minutes ago, Thesauron said:

The comparison with ISIS is that they thought that their views gave them the right to destroy our human heritage. We should not rejoice over the destruction of our history, accidental or not. And this building was also full of human history spanning many hundreds of years. Every generation has put their mark on that building in various ways.

 

I can say with great certainty that I am not "rejoicing" at all.  I don't think anyone here is.  I just don't feel particularly sad about it.  It's simply "too bad".

[Lee49]

3 minutes ago, Hope said:

 

I can say with great certainty that I am not "rejoicing" at all.  I don't think anyone here is.  I just don't feel particularly sad about it.  It's simply "too bad".

It is "too bad" however I will feel sad if and when they start to rebuild it, the whole world will be watching and cheering the project on, I would rather see a wrecking ball bring down the rest of it and let the history of it be what it is, history, until the remberance of it is forgotten! 

[Bek]

I have also noticed that the name the Notre Dame cathedral sounds kind of neutral in English. In Russian, it is called the "mother of god cathedral" and sounds off-putting. In Kyrgyz and other languages spoken by Muslims, it sounds the "Notr Dam house of worship". So its false religious aspect is more obvious than in English. That is why probably some English-speakers are ready to "weep" over the damage, saying "how sad" that a human heritage site has been damaged. 

Edited April 16, 2019 by Bek
spelling

[tekmantwo]

3 minutes ago, Lee49 said:

when they start to rebuild it, the whole world will be watching and cheering the project on,

I wonder how the starving and neglected of this satanic system will feel about that.

 

Billions to repair an edifice while children die in the streets....

[jayrtom]

 

6 hours ago, EccentricM said:

 

What example would we be giving if we openly mocked this event, and then expected pity from others when it happened to us? Since to other people we are just "another religion" too. We "love our enemies", though we don't condone the sin. So we can show respect to them, and at least understand their point of view on these events. It's all about the context.

 

Not being sad about it it's not the same as rejoicing or mocking the event! Today all of my colleagues talked about how sad they were about it, even ones not that religious... I just kept silent about the matter

 

13 minutes ago, Bek said:

I have also noticed that the name the Notre Dam cathedral sounds kind of neutral in English. In Russian, it is called the "mother of god cathedral" and sounds off-putting. In Kyrgyz and other languages spoken by Muslims, it sounds thOure "Notr Dam house of worship". So its false religious aspect is more obvious than in English. That is why probably some English-speakers are ready to "weep" over the damage, saying "how sad" that a human heritage site has been damaged. 

It's the same around here. Thee name of the cathedral is about the mother of God and it brings immediattely the great adoration for Mary around here. Everybody talks about Mary as "Our Lady" but I and other brothers just say "The Lady" or "Their Lady"

 

10 minutes ago, tekmantwo said:

I wonder how the starving and neglected of this satanic system will feel about that.

 

Billions to repair an edifice while children die in the streets....

We are very attached to Mozambique because they also talk Portuguese and are an ancient colony of Portugal. I found interesting that a Journalist said that its a pitty that there was no cathedral in Mozambique for them to receive also those millions...

[Beggar for the Spirit]

There seems to be some different viewpoints, and I would like to comment but I don't want to be debating. I am simply trying to view it from how I think Jehovah views false religions' historical cathedrals, churches, buildings, and artwork. Here is an interesting view from our Insight Books:

Quote

*** it-1 p. 181 Art ***
There is no record or existing evidence of artwork among the Christians of the first century C.E. It is only during the second and third centuries C.E. that some paintings and sculptures appear in the catacombs attributed to nominal Christians. After the union of Church and State in the fourth century, however, art began to be given a prominence that in time equaled that of the pagan religions and was often related to or in direct imitation of such religions, in both its symbolisms and its forms. Louis Réau, who held the chair of the History of Art of the Middle Ages at the Sorbonne University of France, demonstrates in his work Iconographie de l’art chrétien (Paris, 1955, Vol. I, p. 10) that such paganism has long been recognized by historians of art and that the responsibility for it is to be placed not merely on the artists but on the policies that were followed by the church itself. He points out (p. 50) that instead of really converting the pagans from their old practices and forms of worship, the church chose to respect “the ancestral customs and continue them under another name.”

Thus, it is not surprising to find the signs of the zodiac, so prominent in ancient Babylon, displayed on cathedrals such as that of Notre Dame in Paris, where they appear on the left doorway and surround Mary in the huge centrally located rose window. (Compare Isa 47:12-15.) Similarly, a guidebook to the cathedral at Auxerre, also in France, states that in the central entrance to the cathedral, “the sculptor there mixed certain pagan heroes: an Eros [Greek god of love] nude and sleeping . . . a Hercules and a Satyr [one of the Greeks’ semihuman demigods]! The register at the lower right represents the parable of the Prodigal Son.”
Similarly at the entrance of Saint Peter’s Cathedral in Rome appear not only the figure of Christ and the “Virgin” but also that of Ganymede “carried off by the eagle” to become cupbearer of Zeus, king of the gods, and “Leda [who bore Castor and Pollux] fertilized by the swan” Zeus. Commenting further on such pagan influence, Réau asks: “But what is one to say then of the Final Judgment of the Sistine Chapel, the principal chapel of the Vatican, where one sees the nude Christ of Michelangelo lance the lightning like a thundering Jupiter [the Roman father of the gods] and the Damned cross the Styx [the river over which the Greeks believed the dead were ferried] in Charon’s barque?” As he states: “An example that came from so high [that is, approved by the papacy] could not fail to be followed.”

In our modern world today, you may be considered "cultured" if you appreciate and value "religious" artwork. But how does Jehovah view such pagan artwork? For example, in the information above, it is explained that "Mary" is surrounded by the signs of the "Zodiac" in the Notre Dame Cathedral, the artistry may have been excellent, but does Jehovah wants us to appreciate it and value it because of the talent/work involved? Or does Jehovah want us as His people to view such pagan artwork as he does, promoting false beliefs that keep the truth hidden, veiled about Jehovah and Bible. And anything that is a lie against the truth about Jehovah is disgusting in His eyes, even blasphemous. 

 

These religious forms of art that Christendom promotes and cherishes is not "our history" as servants of Jehovah, it is Christendom's history. While we don't laugh at other's disasters or losses, we must ask yourselves, "Will these cathedrals and churches remain standing after the Great Tribulation/Armageddon? Will Jehovah preserve "historical" religious artworks? When Michelangelo is resurrected, will he be permitted to paint again the "Final Judgement" from the Sistine Chapel with the Roman and Greek pagan symbolisms in order to "preserve our history"? No, any pagan artwork or religious buildings that happen to survive will be destroyed in the New World. Only true worship will exist in paradise, in Jehovah's Kingdom. If I am viewing this matter wrong, and someone can show me how Jehovah may view these religious Cathedrals and pagan artwork differently, then I will humbly listen. And I want to add that I appreciated Hope's earlier post(#76) as she expressed a love for art and architecture, yet if it is pagan, promoting false beliefs that oppose Jehovah and the Truth from the Bible, then as she wrote with a passionate zeal for Jehovah, it is" an affront to my Heavenly Father...disgusting to me". 

Edited April 16, 2019 by Beggar for the Spirit

[hatcheckgirl]

I think this incident shows the emotion people everywhere feel about this edifice, from wherever they come from. Our sister, who lives in Paris, commented on how emotionally shocking it feels to have lost such an iconic symbol of Paris. Apart from it being a religious building that housed religious (and other) precious artwork, I see it also as the soul, part of the identity of Paris. All who have visited Paris now identify with that edifice, and also experience a similar shock at its loss. Because it is our emotions that come into play - it’s become our experience too now. Not on the same level as the Parisiens or the French, but akin in the sense of having been there.

 

If the Sydney Opera House burnt down, wouldn’t we all feel similarly? It’s part of Sydney’s identity. When Windsor castle burnt and the treasures inside were threatened, some lost, did we also not look on is shock too? This is a shared human experience, feeling empathy for those who have lost, and in this case, towards a common human artefact to which we all have some connection to.

 

The trick for us is to make sure we keep our emotions in check because we worship Jehovah. We know how this will end for false religion, but now is not the time to celebrate their downfall. We know the genius is in humankind to recreate such wonders in the new world under favourable conditions untainted by religion. This is how I have settled in my heart to process this tragedy.

[EccentricM]

Yes, I did notice from a number of commentors online that they felt saddened for the building, but in the same sentence said to "forget the religion and it's association" with the building, so we can see a great many people are not sad in a Godly way, but just in a national and/or historical way.

[Shawnster]

*** g78 7/22 pp. 10-11 What France Offers Its Visitors ***
What France Offers Its Visitors
By “Awake!” correspondent in France
IMAGINE a couple whom we will call Ray and Cecile. They have been planning their trip to France for months. Ray is very much interested in foreign languages and looks forward to the opportunity of using his recently brushed-up French. Cecile, shall we say, is a descendant of the Huguenots, whence her French name. Being keenly interested in history, she is anxious to visit the land from which her Protestant ancestors may be said to have fled.

Both Ray and Cecile are keen students of the Bible. They want to take advantage of such common Paris attractions as going up the Eiffel Tower, taking a boat ride down the Seine on a bateau-mouche, strolling down the Champs-Elysées or peeping over the shoulder of an artist painting in Montmartre’s Place du Tertre. In addition, they are determined to see at least some of the many places in France that are connected with religious history and the Bible. It is therefore with keen anticipation that they step off their plane at the ultra-modern Roissy-Charles-de-Gaulle Airport.

Notre Dame
They pause in front of this 12th-century Gothic cathedral and gaze at the central porch, where the weighing of souls in the “Last Judgment” is depicted. “After seeing that,” remarks Ray, “I don’t see how any Catholic could deny that his church teaches physical torment of the damned in hell.”

Cecile calls Ray over to look at the left portal, the “Porch of the Virgin.” Pointing to the sculptured scene above the doors, where Mary is shown being crowned by an angel while Christ hands her a scepter, Cecile says dryly: “Boy, they’ve really got her fixed up as the Queen of Heaven!” “Well, yes,” Ray replies, “it all fits in. Notre Dame means ‘Our Lady.’ The whole cathedral is dedicated to the worship of the Queen of Heaven. Yet even the Catholic Jerusalem Bible [Jer. 7:18, footnote] identifies the Queen of Heaven with Ishtar, the pagan goddess of fertility.”

Turning right, into the rue du Cloître-Notre-Dame, they head for number 10, the Notre-Dame-de-Paris Museum (open Saturday and Sunday only, from 2:30 to 6 p.m.). This small museum is well worth a visit, if only to see in a glass case to the right of a passageway between the two inner rooms the late Cardinal Verdier’s “red hat,” and a notice explaining that cardinals receive the red hat from the pope as a symbol of the fact that they must show themselves intrepid, “to the point of shedding blood,” in furthering the interests of the Roman Catholic Church.

Various documents exhibited in glass cases or on the walls of the innermost room show, on the one hand, how the clergy collaborated with the monarchy and then with Napoleon, and, on the other hand, what happened to the clergy and to church property during the French Revolution. “It gives you an idea of what could happen when the prophecies of Revelation, chapters 17 and 18, are fulfilled on Babylonish false religion, doesn’t it?” remarks Cecile, as she and Ray head for their hotel room, tired but satisfied.
 

 

 

[Tortuga]

43 minutes ago, Shawnster said:

By “Awake!” correspondent

I haven't seen that in awhile!

[Qapla]

I guess I see it in a different light from any of the other thoughts expressed here ...

 

I found it a bit "shocking" to hear that such a historical building was on fire and the damage was irreversible. However, I was not "sad" for the loss of the building.

 

However, setting the artwork aside and the religious relics, there was a lot of lumber in that structure.

Quote

Though most of what we see from the outside is stone and glass, much of the inside is buttressed by timber. Builders harvested more than 5,000 oak trees across 52 acres to build the beams, trusses, and reinforcements for the stone structure and to hold up the roof’s 200-metric-ton lead cladding. The trees themselves were three to four centuries old when they were harvested.

There were 1,300 trees used in the roof framework alone.

 

I feel somewhat sad that such old wood was burned up and cannot be replaced anytime soon. After all, if the trees were indeed 300-400 years old when they were harvested more than 850 years ago, that makes the lumber around 1200 years old.

 

I would feel the same way if the wild fires in the US had burned up the Giant Sequoias in Yellowstone National Park.

 

I know we will eventually have lumber that old again at some point in the New System - but the loss of old, seasoned lumber is something that any wood worker can lament over.

[Hope]

7 minutes ago, Qapla said:

I guess I see it in a different light from any of the other thoughts expressed here ...

 

I found it a bit "shocking" to hear that such a historical building was on fire and the damage was irreversible. However, I was not "sad" for the loss of the building.

 

However, setting the artwork aside and the religious relics, there was a lot of lumber in that structure.

 

I feel somewhat sad that such old wood was burned up and cannot be replaced anytime soon. After all, if the trees were indeed 300-400 years old when they were harvested more than 850 years ago, that makes the lumber around 1200 years old.

 

I would feel the same way if the wild fires in the US had burned up the Giant Sequoias in Yellowstone National Park.

 

I know we will eventually have lumber that old again at some point in the New System - but the loss of old, seasoned lumber is something that any wood worker can lament over.

 

For me, yes it was unsettling to hear such a building was on fire, but the pagan aspect of it lessened the feeling.

 

Regarding the lumber -- while it's cool to consider how old that wood is.. it's just wood, it's not trees.  I'd be so devastated if the Sequoias burned down - they're still living!  If a fire burned down an actual living forest that was 1200 years old, that would be awful.  Wood already processed into a building and it's not even furniture or something?  For me that's about as sad as bricks or rocks.  Besides, they were having difficulties with that old wood, anyway - that was part of what was needing restoration.

[rocket]

While watching the news coverage of the fire I couldn't help but notice that the largest outcry was over the burning and fall of the Church steeple. I wonder if any have took notice of the phallic History of the Steeple.

 

https://werdsmith.com/genesology/0R2AbZFhY?fbclid=IwAR0GiBHFtp6efxi5yWi9zaPmVl0BLKzbS8dlKgMMyynDxCQGIZADFDvG4ys

[Hope]

16 minutes ago, rocket said:

While watching the news coverage of the fire I couldn't help but notice that the largest outcry was over the burning and fall of the Church steeple. I wonder if any have took notice of the phallic History of the Steeple.

 

https://werdsmith.com/genesology/0R2AbZFhY?fbclid=IwAR0GiBHFtp6efxi5yWi9zaPmVl0BLKzbS8dlKgMMyynDxCQGIZADFDvG4ys

 

Right?  On one level, it reminded me of when the World Trade Centers fell - that slow, dramatic collapse. Scary to see...

 

On another - Ezek 8:17... "an offensive shoot" to Jehovah's nose. 😕

 

[Qapla]

1 hour ago, Hope said:

while it's cool to consider how old that wood is.. it's just wood, it's not trees

 

I take it your not a woodworker.

[Hope]

10 minutes ago, Qapla said:

 

I take it your not a woodworker.

 

I took carpentry in high school... i LOVE wood - working it, the smell of it, all the different grains.  But already cut wood will not make me sad like live trees being destroyed.  

 

I liked this article:  https://www.cnn.com/style/article/nortre-dame-fire-oak-wood-trnd/index.html

 

A forest fire, however - that breaks my heart...  

[Lee49]

35 minutes ago, Hope said:

 

I took carpentry in high school... i LOVE wood - working it, the smell of it, all the different grains.  But already cut wood will not make me sad like live trees being destroyed.  

 

I liked this article:  https://www.cnn.com/style/article/nortre-dame-fire-oak-wood-trnd/index.html

 

A forest fire, however - that breaks my heart...  

As all of Jehovah's creations being destroyed breaks our hearts, well put sister! 😍

[Thesauron]

It is "too bad" however I will feel sad if and when they start to rebuild it, the whole world will be watching and cheering the project on, I would rather see a wrecking ball bring down the rest of it and let the history of it be what it is, history, until the remberance of it is forgotten! 

I’m not sure we will ever forget what humans were and did. If we do, our history and everything that has happened will be useless and a repeat necessary. But the idea is never to have to repeat it. Bad people will be gone, and bad organisational structures, but not our history.

[Thesauron]

I guess I see it in a different light from any of the other thoughts expressed here ...
 
I found it a bit "shocking" to hear that such a historical building was on fire and the damage was irreversible. However, I was not "sad" for the loss of the building.
 
However, setting the artwork aside and the religious relics, there was a lot of lumber in that structure.

Though most of what we see from the outside is stone and glass, much of the inside is buttressed by timber. Builders harvested more than 5,000 oak trees across 52 acres to build the beams, trusses, and reinforcements for the stone structure and to hold up the roof’s 200-metric-ton lead cladding. The trees themselves were three to four centuries old when they were harvested.
There were 1,300 trees used in the roof framework alone.

 
I feel somewhat sad that such old wood was burned up and cannot be replaced anytime soon. After all, if the trees were indeed 300-400 years old when they were harvested more than 850 years ago, that makes the lumber around 1200 years old.
 
I would feel the same way if the wild fires in the US had burned up the Giant Sequoias in Yellowstone National Park.
 
I know we will eventually have lumber that old again at some point in the New System - but the loss of old, seasoned lumber is something that any wood worker can lament over.

The lumber, of course, is one thing. But not only that. Also, the workmanship behind that wood, and the ideas that were cracked right there and then to solve specific issues. You used to be able to take students there and show them what had been done without any kind of electric tools. Now you can’t.

[Tortuga]

I honestly would have never guessed that a burning church would have created such a variety of emotions and opinions here...

[ChocoBro]

8 hours ago, Thesauron said:

 This is because it has only been consider valuable to study civilisations that are well spoken of in the Bible. This means it is difficult to know much about the world they loved in. We know scraps. I’d be happy to be able to know more about their cultures.

 

I honestly think you ought to examine that mindset. Chances are you'll be hearing plenty of negative stories and accounts about the horrible things that went on in Canaan as the thousand year reign progresses. I doubt that while living in a perfect world you will want to study their civilization. Again, there is a reason Jehovah dedicated a lot of the good for nothing "culture" of that day to destruction. The concept of individual civilizations and their heritage completely being wiped from the pages of history is not a rare occurence. Think of Sodom and Gomorrah. The entire region wiped out, only three people survived with a likelihood of a resurrection. If Lot and his daughters don't want to talk about Sodom and Gomorrah, you likely will never hear anything about it. Why would you want to?

 

On another note, I would like to point out not everybody is really sad about the loss of Notre Dame in the world either. I am repeatedly seeing memes on the internet making a huge joke of it. Sometimes related to Game of Thrones, which is the new religion of our day. Just this morning I got a whatsapp from my CATHOLIC former worldly best friend who sent me a meme implying the Lannister queen being behind the destruction of Notre Dame. Sometimes, the memes are linking the destruction to pedophilia jokes. I don't take any of the public hysteria seriously anymore. It is a hype to pretend to be shocked by what happened now, but who knows, next week people might actually be arguing about whether it is really necessary to invest sooo much money into an old building when people are starving in the third world and the climate is changing.