DISCUSS COURT CASE HERE JW.org - Jehovah’s Witnesses Mobilize Global Response to Threat of Ban in Russia

[ChrisC]

Ex the ex-witness saying they were hated by the Orthodox majority, or that they themself hated the orthodox majority?

[Chris7]

Next session next Wednesday. 

This should allow any late letters to arrive and for further prayers in support of Jehovah's interests. 

[Nobody]

5 minutes ago, ChrisTheConfused said:

Ex the ex-witness saying they were hated by the Orthodox majority, or that they themself hated the orthodox majority?

 

Zverev said that influenced the literature of Jehovah's Witnesses, he personally experienced the hatred of the clergy of the Orthodox religion. 

[sunshine]

15 minutes ago, ChrisTheConfused said:

Ex the ex-witness saying they were hated by the Orthodox majority, or that they themself hated the orthodox majority?

My google translate said " he personally experienced the hatred of the clergy of the Orthodox religion. " but maybe something was lost in translation...  it doesn't really make sense for him to say they hated him (if that was the case they should be on trial for teaching hate)

Edited April 12, 2017 by sunshine

[MCTDonna]

Zverev said that under the influence of the literature of Jehovah's Witnesses he personally felt hatred for the clergy of the Orthodox religion.

this is my translation of  google

[Bushel]

I get the feeling this is going to be a drawn out court case. But i think, that maybe a good thing in retrospect, because if you get everything out in the open now proving we aren't extremest, then what grounds in any future cases would there be. ( of course Satan will try hard) Maybe that is Jehovah's Purpose. At any rate, May we continue to support our friends in Russia who have to continue to deal with this stress. And may We all continue to Rely on Jehovha for a Great outcome.

[JudyO]

2 hours ago, jayrtom said:

They have gifted hackers and engineers so that they can do their mean work... I think that's not a valid argument. Btw, most of the witnesses don't have college degrees...

No, it's the same here,  but professionals are credible witnesses in any court of law 

[Iron Stylus]

14 minutes ago, sunshine said:

Wednesday evening - SIMPLIFIED

 

 

16"54  Our (?) Lawyer Master Lew pointed out that their first ex-witness used nearly the exact same words as on a famous anti-sect site. Are these really her own words?

(The Judge said he'd check that out later)

 

The Judge asked the second ex-witness:  If you were "harmed" by witnesses, did you report the incident to the authorities.  No reply.  The second ex-witness said he personally suffered because being a witness he  hated  the Orthodox Church.  He denies he is currently part of an anti-witness/anti-sect organizations although there are pictures that imply that he is.  This witness goes on to say that we are extremist because we disfellowhip sinners.   The Judge asks the MoJ if he is claming this is a threat to the public?  The judge asked this last ex-witness if he personally saw Witnesses distributing banned literature.  He did not.

 

18"30  Their Lawyers  ask the other ex-witness to explain the Witness position on Higher Education and Saluting the flag but the Judge wont allow the questions as they are not related to this case about being extremists.  They ask the ex-witness if she is interested in this case, she says yes.

 

 

END OF SESSION - Back on the 19th April.

 

Lawyer Master Lew. Lol. I thought you were using chrome. It was lawyer Omelchenko.

The 5 or 6 who are representing this case are the following, Zhenkov, Omelchenko, Toporov, Novakov, and Vasily Kalina  the chairman of the steering committee. There may be one other representative because on the opening notes of Day 1, it stated there were 6 representatives for the defendants.

 

[Iron Stylus]

32 minutes ago, MCTDonna said:

Zverev said that under the influence of the literature of Jehovah's Witnesses he personally felt hatred for the clergy of the Orthodox religion.

this is my translation of  google

Yes this is correct. The MOJ wants to try to make it seem like our literature incited the witness to hate the orthodox religious leaders. His statement is by far the most important in today's proceedings by the MOJ witnesses because it hints at personal hatred. The only problem with bringing in ex-witnesses is that their experiences are prior to a lot of new laws on extremism, and they are not personally in the know of what really goes on. Moreover, just because a member has strong personal feelings does not mean that the organization encouraged those feelings. On the contrary, we are taught to love our neighbor, so his testimony doesn't prove that the Russian brothers are taught to be extremists.

Edited April 12, 2017 by Iron Stylus

[Lance]

It looks like the judge is keeping things on topic ... that is great ... if we loose it is not because of a lack of truth or the following of Caesars law.. if we loose it will be purely a political decision.

[LeslieDean]

I thought Lawyer Master Lew was a rap artist...

[Iron Stylus]

29 minutes ago, LeslieDean said:

I thought Lawyer Master Lew was a rap artist...

Shhh. That is his nightly gig. Haha!

 

Toporov, the representative of the Axes is meat butcher I think. He has been carving up the MOJ since Day 2.

Edited April 12, 2017 by Iron Stylus

[hatcheckgirl]

Further to what Lance said, it reminded me of the fabricated evidence and lies they used to "convict" Jesus at the Sanhedrin trial. That was both religious, and political. All to do with keeping their power over people, and them not wanting the truth to be known by the populace. Have we seen this repeated throughout history - banning vernacular versions of the Bible lest the "peasants" read the truth?

 

So, it wouldn't surprise me one bit if, despite their seemingly incongruous witnesses and so-called evidence of extremism, Jehovah's Witnesses are still convicted.  The Russian government may just thumb their noses at the world media and decide to pursue their agenda openly (KON agenda, perhaps?). Such a long adjournment is possibly for the Justice ministry to 'get their act together'.

 

Now the chief priests and the entire Sanʹhe·drin were looking for false testimony against Jesus in order to put him to death.+ 60  But they found none, although many false witnesses came forward.+ Later two came forward 61  and said: “This man said, ‘I am able to throw down the temple of God and build it up in three days.’” Matt 26:59-61

[bagwell1987]

That was a great point made really well Lucy. I was thinking the very same thing but you said it so much better. (and you got to use the word incongruous! )

[hatcheckgirl]

Hahaa! But did I use it correctly? It's around 2:20 am and I can't sleep....

[bagwell1987]

4 minutes ago, hatcheckgirl said:

Hahaa! But did I use it correctly? It's around 2:20 am and I can't sleep....

I think so, but I'm more impressed that you were brave enough to use it! Haaa!

[Gi-Gi]

I lost the last 24 hours 

recap please

[Iron Stylus]

39 minutes ago, hatcheckgirl said:

Further to what Lance said, it reminded me of the fabricated evidence and lies they used to "convict" Jesus at the Sanhedrin trial. That was both religious, and political. All to do with keeping their power over people, and them not wanting the truth to be known by the populace. Have we seen this repeated throughout history - banning vernacular versions of the Bible lest the "peasants" read the truth?

 

So, it wouldn't surprise me one bit if, despite their seemingly incongruous witnesses and so-called evidence of extremism, Jehovah's Witnesses are still convicted.  The Russian government may just thumb their noses at the world media and decide to pursue their agenda openly (KON agenda, perhaps?). Such a long adjournment is possibly for the Justice ministry to 'get their act together'.

 

Now the chief priests and the entire Sanʹhe·drin were looking for false testimony against Jesus in order to put him to death.+ 60  But they found none, although many false witnesses came forward.+ Later two came forward 61  and said: “This man said, ‘I am able to throw down the temple of God and build it up in three days.’” Matt 26:59-61

yes, the court is acting much like Pontius Pilate in that they do not see anything deserving of punishment.

 

The third ex-witness said that because we do not allow sinful people into our ranks, that made us extremist. Haha. The court had to ask what they were trying to prove. By not allowing sinners to infiltrate our organization, that is threatening the well being of citizens.  It doesn't get much dumber than that.

Then with the last ex-witness the MOJ tries to sneak in 2 additional arguments (Higher education and state symbols) that weren't part of the claim, and the court says, "No, No, No...stick to your original bogus claim." So the court is definitely very reasonable.

 

I think this trial has been postponed for a week only due to the Easter Holiday coming up. Apparently they do not hold court on Mondays and Tuesdays because that is when they review cases or do other paperwork.

 

[Shawnster]

I would like to know how the current political situation is affecting these court hearings.  Are they separate enough that everything is business as usual or are the court officials feeling any amount of pressure and distraction due to the Syria crisis (and the terrorist bombing)?

[Iron Stylus]

25 minutes ago, Gi-Gi said:

I lost the last 24 hours 

recap please

Here is a combination of Sunshine's simplified translation with my own translation adjustments according to context. The short recap is that the judge and MOJ questioned the JW lawyers and could not find any fault. Then 8 witnesses were brought in and most of the favored that we aren't extremists.

DAY 4 April 12, 2017

The JW’s lawyer Omelchenko proves loudly and convincingly that the suit of the Ministry of Justice contradicts articles 9, 10, 11 of the European Convention, articles 28, 29, 30 of the Constitution of the Russian Federation, as well as the provisions of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights. He quotes from the judgments of the European Court of Human Rights (ECHR), in which the authoritative court establishes the right of Jehovah's Witnesses to freedom of religion. What the Ministry of Justice requires is not justified and proportionate. It is noteworthy that in a memorandum, which the Russian Federation sent to the ECHR, it was the Ministry of Justice that recognized that there are no open calls for violence in the literature of Jehovah's Witnesses. Omelchenko notes that the communities of Jehovah's Witnesses, which the Ministry of Justice requests to liquidate, received many letters of commendation from local authorities, but they did not receive warnings about extremist activity.

Omelchenko lists the steps taken by the Jehovah's Witnesses Center: 1) notified all LROs about entering books in the FLEM, 2) created a commission to prevent the appearance of extremist materials, 3) reported ineffectively to authorities about planted literature in Kingdom Halls, 4) unsuccessfully asked the Prosecutor General's Office what other measures could be expected from Jehovah's Witnesses to prevent "extremist activity".

International law prohibits inhuman or degrading treatment. The Ministry of Justice's lawsuit on the prohibition of Jehovah's Witnesses breaks the moral and physical resistance of the individual, forcing them to fear openly professing their faith. Omelchenko lists domestic and international appeals to the Russian Federation to stop the politically motivated persecution of Jehovah's Witnesses, the misuse of anti-extremist legislation in relation to Jehovah's Witnesses. The Ministry of Justice, while ignoring all incoming signals, continues to act as a repressive body.

The JW’s lawyer Zhenkov provides an explanation for "Example of violations of the rights of citizens on the part of the religious organization" the Ministry of Justice submitted to the Court on Day 2. Firstly, the lawyer is puzzled why the Ministry of Justice has not explained where they got the document containing medical secrecy. Secondly, this wasn't a case of not being allowed their rights in fact it’s the opposite, the Witness had the RIGHT to refuse a treatment she didn't want, that's the law. Lastly, Zhenkov read excerpts from the law of the Ministry of Health concerning the dangers of blood transfusions and the need to first obtain from the patient written consent for the operation. Zhenkov notes that the law does not make exceptions such as that one religion is allowed to exercise the right to informed consent and another is not allowed.

 

The judge begins to ask questions to the JW Lawyers:

Q: Does the Russian Branch decide on the interpretation of scripture? A: No, that comes from the Faithful Slave at the World Headquarters.  

Q: How does the Russian Branch "organize" the activities of the congregations? A: They give recommendations. For example, when it comes to building Kingdom Halls the Administrative Center will recommend the style, but the congregations make the final decisions.

Q: Regarding congregations that are part of the LRO, does the Administrative Center decide what procedures are followed then? A: The Administrative Center will approve their guidelines so that the members are all Jehovah's Witnesses that will respect bible principles.  

Q: Are Presiding overseers of the Congregations ever part of the financial department of the Branch? A: No, they are kept separate.

Q: Are there any circumstances when there is a connection between the Administrative Center and the LROs? A: Yes, when they ask the Administrative Center for a loan or donations for example to build a hall or to help with disaster relief.

Q: Do the congregations ever get money from you to produce literature? A: No the congregations do not produce the literature.

Q: Does the Administrative Center oversee the distribution of literature? A: No, the Branch simply produces and sends the literature to the local congregations, the congregations are responsible for its "distribution".

Q: What about a book [unnamed in the transcript] that was declared illegal just after it was imported, but was still spread amongst your believers? A: Yes, but we immediately informed the congregations that it was illegal and told them not to distribute the book.

Q: What do you DO with the banned books? We do not tell the congregations what to do with the books, we tell them to obey the law [the law only says don't distribute them it doesn't say to burn them].  

  

 Now the Ministry of Justice’s Lawyers ask our brothers questions:

 Q: What role does the Administrative Center play in the individual charter (legal guidelines) of the congregation "founders"? A: They check that congregations guidelines respect bible standards, just like a court checks that organizations respect the law.

Q: How much influence does the Administrative Center have on who are the founding members of congregations? [Judge intervenes that this is relevant to legal representatives of an organization] Question goes unanswered.

Q: Who are the Traveling Overseers and Special Pioneers? A: They are Ministers appointed by the Administrative Center not the congregation. [JUDGE intervenes: Do you have any proof these special full time ministers are involved in choosing the congregation overseers or are involved in any illegal activities?] Their Lawyer answers: no not really.

The JUDGE asks their lawyer, do you have any reason to ask us to consider the activities of these individuals? Their Lawyer responds: Yes, because the Administrative Center know what they do. The Judge reminds their Lawyer that knowing about something is not a crime, we are here to discuss the law so please stick to legal matters.

Their Lawyer continues to try and establish that the congregations and the Branch are all one legal organization (so if they ban one they ban them all) because they sometimes give money to the congregation but the brothers point out that just because you give someone money doesn't mean you support them financially.

Q: Do you check what the congregations do with their money? A: Yes, but so does the Ministry of Justice, does that make you a branch of the Jehovah's Witnesses too? Anyway, none of our checks revealed anything illegals.

Q: Why did you send a letter saying to the congregations not to distribute a book AFTER the ban had appeared on the Court website. A: Because it is difficult to keep up with everything on that site and the way the ban was put it wasn't clear they were talking about one of our books.

Q: What do you use today to spread your teachings. A: The bible - we mainly use the Russian Orthodox Translation. ALL the Watchtowers were not banned, only a few and no literature has been imported into Russia since 2015

 

The JW lawyers bring in 4 active Jehovah’s Witnesses and questions them:

The first witness, Zavyalov Valentin Mikhailovich, has been a Jehovah’s Witness for more than 20 years. He reported that at the meetings of his religious group the literature introduced in the FLEM is NEVER used. The names of this literature are posted on the wall of the room where religious services are held. Believers carefully inspect the premises before the start of worship, to exclude the possibility of finding such literature in worship services.

Next Evgeny Skladchikov, Doctor of Technical Sciences became a Witness of Jehovah in 1998. He says that in the religion of Jehovah's Witnesses he was attracted by the unconditional peacefulness of the biblical teaching, it is completely incompatible with extremism. No extremist publications are used at worship services.

Next, Vilen Kantere, Doctor of Technical Sciences, Honored Worker of Science and Technology The JW’s lawyer Toporov asks: "When you became a Jehovah Witness 25 years ago, did you pursue extremist goals?" Witness: "God forbid! No, of course not!” "The witness explains that this is incompatible with the faith of Jehovah's Witnesses. Toporov: "Do you use the materials included in the FLEM?" The witness explains that, as a law-abiding citizen, he destroyed these publications.

The last witness Tatiana Kremneva, doctor of pedagogical sciences. As part of his scientific work, he is involved in the prevention of child abuse and extremist materials in the youth environment. The JW’s lawyer Toporov asks: “When you became a Witness of Jehovah, did you become motivated to commit extremist acts?” Answer: “No, the religion of Jehovah's Witnesses is incompatible with extremism. The court asks: “Do you initiate discord in other religions?” Witness: “No.” The JW’s Lawyer Zhenkov asks: “Did the Teaching of Jehovah's Witnesses help you raise a child?” The witness tells that he is proud of his child, his success in studies and work. Zhenkov asks: “How do you feel about colleagues and students who do not share your religion?” Witness’ response: “Positively. Without hatred, disrespect, contempt, discrimination.”

 

 The Ministry of Justice solicits interrogation of 4 ex-Jehovah’s Witnesses:

The first witness Koretsky drew attention to the fact that she uses personal records while giving evidence. The JW’s Lawyer Omelchenko asked how she explains the similarity of the formulations from her notes with texts from the site of the well-known anti-sectarian center. The court decided to read Koretsky's notes later.

The next witness Pavel Zverev, says that he was harmed by his involvement with the Jehovah’s Witneses. The court asks: "If you were harmed, did you contact the competent authorities on this matter?" The witness did not apply. The witness said that under the influence of the literature of Jehovah's Witnesses he personally felt hatred for the clergy of the Orthodox religion. The witness denies that he is in anti-cult organizations, although he met and photographed with a famous "sectologist".

The next witness Petrova, says that when she became Jehovah's Witness, she left her work connected with the propaganda of military heroism, because this does not correspond to the belief of Jehovah's Witnesses. In 2009, she left the religion of Jehovah's Witnesses. As an example of the extremist activities of the Management Center, the witness cites the fact that Jehovah's Witnesses exclude those who commit sins from their ranks. [The court asked the representative of the Ministry of Justice what are the arguments of the Justice Ministry, confirmed in the testimony of this witness?) The Ministry of Justice again speaks about a possible threat to an uncertain circle of persons.] On the question of the court, whether witness Petrov saw that someone spread extremist literature, the witness replies that she did not see.

In 2009, V.Koretsky left the ranks of Jehovah's Witnesses. The judge asks if his knowledge of Jehovah's Witnesses is limited since 2009. Witness: “Yes.” The Ministry of Justice asks the witness to explain that he knows about the attitude of Jehovah's Witnesses to higher education, to state symbols. The court asks the representative of the Ministry of Justice: "If you do not specify these points in the grounds of the claim, why do we need to find out?" The representative of the Ministry of Justice: "The question is removed." On the question of the court whether Koretsky is interested in the outcome of the case, he answers briefly: "Yes."

The court announces a break until April 19, 2017 10:00.

[Ishaya]

Further to what Lance said, it reminded me of the fabricated evidence and lies they used to "convict" Jesus at the Sanhedrin trial. That was both religious, and political. All to do with keeping their power over people, and them not wanting the truth to be known by the populace. Have we seen this repeated throughout history - banning vernacular versions of the Bible lest the "peasants" read the truth?
 
So, it wouldn't surprise me one bit if, despite their seemingly incongruous witnesses and so-called evidence of extremism, Jehovah's Witnesses are still convicted.  The Russian government may just thumb their noses at the world media and decide to pursue their agenda openly (KON agenda, perhaps?). Such a long adjournment is possibly for the Justice ministry to 'get their act together'.
 
Now the chief priests and the entire Sanʹhe·drin were looking for false testimony against Jesus in order to put him to death.+ 60  But they found none, although many false witnesses came forward.+ Later two came forward 61  and said: “This man said, ‘I am able to throw down the temple of God and build it up in three days.’” Matt 26:59-61

and I'm optimistic too that we have the advantage of living in a much enlightened world unlike the sanhedrin's time.im sure the Russian government must have realise that they cant just ban jehovah's witnesses unjustly without facing the severest of criticism from highly intellectuals and human right organizations around the world.this is a high profile case and they have all world watching with rapt attention.its something similar to when Gamaliel (an esteemed teacher of the law) suddenly stood in defence of the apostles before the sanhedrin and the situation turned out positive - Acts 5:34-40.I'm hopeful this is going to play out well too with Jehovah's help.

Sent from my TECNO P9 using Tapatalk

[Tortuga]

It took the 'beard' thread more than two years to reach 90 pages, this thread did it in less than a month...

[Shawnster]

The Sanhedrin was going to act the way it did.  Jesus death was predetermined.  The false accusers were prophesied.  

 

This court hearing is not in the scriptures.  That gives us hope the outcome isn't already set in stone.

[2EVES]

59 minutes ago, Tortuga said:

"It took the 'beard' thread more than two years to reach 90 pages"

Maybe the thread title should have been "extreme beards".  

 

 

 

 

Edited April 12, 2017 by EVE 2015

[rbrown1205]

1 hour ago, Tortuga said:

It took the 'beard' thread more than two years to reach 90 pages, this thread did it in less than a month...

 

 

It is undoubtedly because we are concerned about our brothers and sisters.  I feel like our brothers during WWII.  We know that the Jews all over the world, especially in Europe, knew about the Holocaust while it was taking place.

Only about 1300 or so of our brothers were imprisoned then, and about 250 died, but the brothers of that time knew about it.  

 

We, all over the world, are now, through the internet, essentially experiencing vicariously the trials that our brothers have to go through - they may lose their ability to associate freely.  Some may be imprisoned, or have to leave their home.  Or not.  Whatever Jehovah allows, they can handle it with his help.  Any trial they have, or will have, will not be more than they can bear.

Edited April 12, 2017 by rbrown1205