Paris: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire

[Thesauron]

 
I honestly think you ought to examine that mindset. Chances are you'll be hearing plenty of negative stories and accounts about the horrible things that went on in Canaan as the thousand year reign progresses. I doubt that while living in a perfect world you will want to study their civilization. Again, there is a reason Jehovah dedicated a lot of the good for nothing "culture" of that day to destruction. The concept of individual civilizations and their heritage completely being wiped from the pages of history is not a rare occurence. Think of Sodom and Gomorrah. The entire region wiped out, only three people survived with a likelihood of a resurrection. If Lot and his daughters don't want to talk about Sodom and Gomorrah, you likely will never hear anything about it. Why would you want to?
 
On another note, I would like to point out not everybody is really sad about the loss of Notre Dame in the world either. I am repeatedly seeing memes on the internet making a huge joke of it. Sometimes related to Game of Thrones, which is the new religion of our day. Just this morning I got a whatsapp from my CATHOLIC former worldly best friend who sent me a meme implying the Lannister queen being behind the destruction of Notre Dame. Sometimes, the memes are linking the destruction to pedophilia jokes. I don't take any of the public hysteria seriously anymore. It is a hype to pretend to be shocked by what happened now, but who knows, next week people might actually be arguing about whether it is really necessary to invest sooo much money into an old building when people are starving in the third world and the climate is changing.
 
 

You will probably hear both sides of the story. Why do you think I need to re-examine my mindset that we shouldn’t rejoice over the destruction of our history? By the way, I’d love to find archaeological remains of Sodom and Gomorrah. (Perhaps there are and we just can’t connect them.)

When you enter the British Museum, you can see a lot of remains from Nineveh and other Assyrian cities. One major thing you can see is a set of large stone statues of lamassus. People actually believed these could protect the owner of the palace. Do we still believe that? No. Are they worthy protecting? Yes. Would I be upset if they were destroyed. Yes. You can also see stone relics depicting who the assyrians were in their own eyes. These are horrible, at times. Are they worth protecting? Yes.

[Thesauron]

I honestly would have never guessed that a burning church would have created such a variety of emotions and opinions here...

It’s not the ‘burning of a church’, it is the destruction of a part of our history and civilisation. It matters, and it is upsetting.

[Hope]

I still wonder why "rejoicing" is a word you're using here @Thesauron. Not a one here is celebrating. But not being grieved over the damage/loss of a cathedral built for false worship is not the same as rejoicing.  I've seen the artifacts you mention at the British Museum. They were fascinating, absolutely- but also disgusting, knowing what I know from Bible history. I won't be sorry when those relics are destroyed, either. 

 

Destruction of such buildings at some point is inevitable, we know this. The resurrection of the engineers and artisans who built is inevitable, as well. Perhaps they will teach classes on how to build in that way in the future?  No need for field trips into what's basically a pagan temple to learn those secrets..

[ChocoBro]

1 hour ago, Hope said:

Not a one here is celebrating.

 

Well, to be honest, I wouldn't say celebrating, but I certainly had a smile cross my face when I saw the pictures on the news because it felt like a foreshadow of something soon to happen that I geatly look forward to.

 

I mean seriously, what do you think the destruction of Babylon the Great will be like? No burning cathedrals and churches? A few candle-light vigils and people singing "Imagine" while turning churches into museums? No razed mosques, no plundered Hindu temples? How much cult heritage do you think will be lost when that goes down? I won't feel an iota of shame for them. I will "raise my head erect".

 

People are getting sick of cancer, autoimmunediseases, killed by wars, often perpetuated by false religion. The environment is being destroyed by greedy corporations and, guilty by association, every one of us individually. It all needs to go and I'll be celebrating when it is.

[Thesauron]

I still wonder why "rejoicing" is a word you're using here [mention=7786]Thesauron[/mention]. Not a one here is celebrating. But not being grieved over the damage/loss of a cathedral built for false worship is not the same as rejoicing.  I've seen the artifacts you mention at the British Museum. They were fascinating, absolutely- but also disgusting, knowing what I know from Bible history. I won't be sorry when those relics are destroyed, either. 
 
Destruction of such buildings at some point is inevitable, we know this. The resurrection of the engineers and artisans who built is inevitable, as well. Perhaps they will teach classes on how to build in that way in the future?  No need for field trips into what's basically a pagan temple to learn those secrets..

I think it’s always sad when we lose our history. I think history is important.

Thanks to the remains of the Assyrian culture preserved at the British Museum, we know who they were. We know why certain things were written about them. There are other cultures that we don’t know enough about, and I would love to have been able to know more about them.

[jayrtom]

4 hours ago, Thesauron said:

It’s not the ‘burning of a church’, it is the destruction of a part of our history and civilisation. It matters, and it is upsetting.

I can understand why your upset in view of your ideas about history and artifacts and the collective amount of those things regarding the cathedral.

But think about how Jehovah regards artifacts and history. 

Jehovah didn't have any problems in destroying the Babel Tower - It certainly was something magnificent who would made the builders gain a celebrated name for themselves (Gen 11:4)

Even relating to things that have to do with pure worship he didn't worry in preserving the history --> Solomon temple, Noah's Ark, The Ark of the Covenant, etc.... - All those things would make a delicacy to any history lover! But where are those things?

If those things, including the Babel tower, existed today, certainly they would be visited and people would marveled by it. But it's not cause to be sad that they don't exist... specially if the existence of it was against Jehovah will in the first place

 

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/101989925#h=26

If, however, in God’s new world, it should be the Creator’s will to have the history books rewritten—including those of religious history—it will be possible. This is because of another beauty of true religion—the assurance that the dead will be resurrected.—John 5:28, 29; Acts 24:15.

Imagine the joy of getting accurate answers to our questions by talking to resurrected humans who actually did the things we have read about in the history books. Imagine being able to fill in missing details, such as the name of the Pharaoh who died at the Red Sea and who experienced the plagues of Egypt.

If such a record should someday be written, it will be written to glorify and eternally vindicate the founder of true religion, Jehovah God. Of this there can be no question.

 

Now they want to rebuild it, but all the historic value has been gone, it can't be salvaged. It's like trying to rebuild a classic car but only recent parts exist. It won't be a classical anymore.

It will be only spending millions that could be used on more good things... But that the system now...

[Pjdriver]

I love learning about history. I’ve been to Notre Dame... and while I enjoy seeing and learning, I have no “attachment to anything that is symbolizes what Jehovah hates. That’s right, Jehovah hates it! There’s no way around it. We cant just separate  the fact that it’s old or considered “art” with the fact that it symbolizes lies, oppression and death of millions.

I don’t think Jehovah or Jesus are shedding a tear or losing sleep.

 

Revelation 18: 21 And a strong angel lifted up a stone like a great millstone and hurled it into the sea, saying: “Thus with a swift pitch will Babylon the great city be hurled down, and she will never be found again.  22 And the sound of singers who accompany themselves on the harp, of musicians, of flutists, and of trumpeters will never be heard in you again. And no craftsman who practices any trade will ever be found in you again, and no sound of a millstone will ever be heard in you again.  23 No light of a lamp will ever shine in you again, and no voice of a bridegroom and of a bride will ever be heard in you again; for your merchants were the top-ranking men of the earth, and by your spiritistic practices all the nations were misled.  24 Yes, in her was found the blood of prophets and of holy ones and of all those who have been slaughtered on the earth.

 

 

 

Edited April 17, 2019 by Pjdriver

[EccentricM]

Edit- misread

Edited April 17, 2019 by EccentricM

[Wozza60]

[harmania]

When it was burning, it reminded me to not be attached to anything in this system. So much more will be destroyed in armagedon. No guarantee any historical structures will be saved. I'm going to use this as opportunity to get used to that thought.

[carlos]

7 hours ago, Tortuga said:

I honestly would have never guessed that a burning church would have created such a variety of emotions and opinions here...

I think that's exactly the key in our difference of viewpoints here. For you it's just "a burning church". But for many it's much more than that. It's the place where Mary Queen of the Scots got married in 1558. It had scars from the French Revolution. It's the place where Napoleon was crowned emperor in 1804. Its bells tolled with joy to announce that the Nazis were fleeing from Paris. There's a lot of history connected with that place. Not just a church. It's like the Smithsonian, or the MET or the Capitol are burning and someone says: "It's just a burning building". It's a lot more than that.

 

I don't understand either the reasoning others have mentioned that anyway it would be destroyed at Armageddon. Well, probably it would, and when that happens I will be as happy as anyone else. But Armageddon is not now. If we continue that same reasoning, it's not a tragedy if my house burns, because it will be destroyed at Armageddon or shortly afterwards. But I need it now! The 9-11 attacks were not a tragedy. Those buildings would have been destroyed at Armageddon anyway. And the people who died there, they either would have died at Armageddon or will be resurrected. Nothing is a tragedy actually, because everything we see around us belongs to Satan's world and will be destroyed at Armageddon. That doesn't make sense to me.

 

I don't think the world's history will be lost and forgotten. Mankind has reached some wonderful achievements, despite imperfection. Awesome architecture, moving melodies, wonderfully accurate sculptures, inspiring poetry... I'm sure there will be museums in the new world which will show what life was like in the old world. If the bad things will never be forgotten so that Jehovah's sovereignty is never challenged again, why should we forget the good things?

 

[GrumpysWife]

Thank you for your insight, Carlos. Sometimes we only see things one sided. It's good to be able to view both sides.

[Wozza60]

37 minutes ago, carlos said:

I think that's exactly the key in our difference of viewpoints here. For you it's just "a burning church". But for many it's much more than that. It's the place where Mary Queen of the Scots got married in 1558. It had scars from the French Revolution. It's the place where Napoleon was crowned emperor in 1804. Its bells tolled with joy to announce that the Nazis were fleeing from Paris. There's a lot of history connected with that place. Not just a church. It's like the Smithsonian, or the MET or the Capitol are burning and someone says: "It's just a burning building". It's a lot more than that.

 

I don't understand either the reasoning others have mentioned that anyway it would be destroyed at Armageddon. Well, probably it would, and when that happens I will be as happy as anyone else. But Armageddon is not now. If we continue that same reasoning, it's not a tragedy if my house burns, because it will be destroyed at Armageddon or shortly afterwards. But I need it now! The 9-11 attacks were not a tragedy. Those buildings would have been destroyed at Armageddon anyway. And the people who died there, they either would have died at Armageddon or will be resurrected. Nothing is a tragedy actually, because everything we see around us belongs to Satan's world and will be destroyed at Armageddon. That doesn't make sense to me.

 

I don't think the world's history will be lost and forgotten. Mankind has reached some wonderful achievements, despite imperfection. Awesome architecture, moving melodies, wonderfully accurate sculptures, inspiring poetry... I'm sure there will be museums in the new world which will show what life was like in the old world. If the bad things will never be forgotten so that Jehovah's sovereignty is never challenged again, why should we forget the good things?

 

"I don't think the world's history will be lost and forgotten." why on earth would we as Jehovah's people want these disgusting churches, or anything else of Satan's awful system to remain after Armageddon??? Clue... what was left after Noah's flood? what was left after Ancient Babylon was destroyed?...  Good ridden..  We don't need reminders of this old system.. better of building new memories in Jehovah's righteous new system. 

[Shawnster]

Just to play devil's advocate with Carlos...  Don't take any of this personally, buddy.

 

51 minutes ago, carlos said:

I think that's exactly the key in our difference of viewpoints here. For you it's just "a burning church". But for many it's much more than that. It's the place where Mary Queen of the Scots got married in 1558. It had scars from the French Revolution. It's the place where Napoleon was crowned emperor in 1804. Its bells tolled with joy to announce that the Nazis were fleeing from Paris. There's a lot of history connected with that place. Not just a church. It's like the Smithsonian, or the MET or the Capitol are burning and someone says: "It's just a burning building". It's a lot more than that.

 

European history.  Western culture.  White North America has the same roots as Europe, so many here are also mourning and in shock.  But, do people living in Africa or Asia feel the same amount of profound loss?   Is this a case of being Eurocentric?  Are we bordering on national or cultural pride and heritage?  

 

Everything you listed were political events.  We, as Christians, are neutral to such matters.  Should these political or historical events really mean something to us?  Don't get me wrong.  I understand what you are saying.  I'm just as moved by history.  But I've seen Christians ask the same questions about touring battlefields or forts or museums.  My father-in-law is one of those people who cannot understand why a Christian would want to visit the site of a famous battle like Gettysburg (famous US Civil War battle and the site of Abraham Lincoln's Emancipation Proclamation) or the USS Arizona memorial (Battleship sank by the Japanese at Pearl Harbor).  Glorifying war.  

 

Mary Queen of Scots, French Revolution, Napoleon, Nazis fleeing Paris.  All of these are historical political events that were in opposition to Jehovah's will.

 

51 minutes ago, carlos said:

I don't understand either the reasoning others have mentioned that anyway it would be destroyed at Armageddon. Well, probably it would, and when that happens I will be as happy as anyone else. But Armageddon is not now. If we continue that same reasoning, it's not a tragedy if my house burns, because it will be destroyed at Armageddon or shortly afterwards. But I need it now! The 9-11 attacks were not a tragedy. Those buildings would have been destroyed at Armageddon anyway. And the people who died there, they either would have died at Armageddon or will be resurrected. Nothing is a tragedy actually, because everything we see around us belongs to Satan's world and will be destroyed at Armageddon. That doesn't make sense to me.

 

Your house was never built as a place of pagan worship.  Your house wasn't built with phallic symbols.  Your house was never the site of planning to torture people for reading the Bible.  What role did Notre Dame play in the era of burning witches or the Inquisition?  Were architects of these horrendous acts applauded and celebrated there?  Did they give rallying speeches there?

 

I already made the comparison to 9-11.  The World Trade Center was a temple dedicated to the gods of the merchants.  Those merchants are going to be destroyed at Armageddon.  Merchants are one of the 3 legs that support Satan's system.  Yes, there were some Witnesses who reacted negatively to the mourning of the Towers.   My mother called me that morning all upset about the attack then she got upset with herself because she felt that as a Christian it might be silly to get that upset over something the Bible said would happen (wars, reports of wars, lack of love, unthankful, .... )

 

9-11 isn't quite the same comparison, though.  2,000 people died that day.  I don't believe anyone died in the fire at Notre Dame.   People who mourn 9-11 are mourning more than the loss of a building.  They are mourning the loss of life.   Nearly everyone in the US either knows someone who died or knows someone who knows someone who died.

 

I wanted to visit the site in 2010 when I was in NYC, but I felt funny about wanting to.  Here I am, a Christian, and I want to visit this site?  Why?

 

 

1 hour ago, carlos said:

don't think the world's history will be lost and forgotten. Mankind has reached some wonderful achievements, despite imperfection. Awesome architecture, moving melodies, wonderfully accurate sculptures, inspiring poetry... I'm sure there will be museums in the new world which will show what life was like in the old world. If the bad things will never be forgotten so that Jehovah's sovereignty is never challenged again, why should we forget the good things?

 

We won't need the buildings, though, to remember the history.  There probably have been more historic building lost or destroyed than are currently still in existence.  In the new world we will have the people themselves to talk to.  We won't need to see a structure to remind us about the past.  The past will be alive and we will actually talk with the people involved in those events.  Which is better - seeing the building where Mary Queen of Scots married or talking to Mary herself?

 

When Jehovah destroyed Jericho, nothing remained.  When Jehovah caused the Flood, nothing remained.  When Jehovah destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah nothing remained.  Should Jehovah have preserved the altars where the Canaanites made their children pass through the fire?  Those were historical sites, right?  

 

I get it.  I do.  Maybe it's because we're imperfect that we cling to these structures.  Of all the imperfect people here I am foremost.  I want to visit the USS Arizona.  I've visited Fort Sumter where the Civil War began.  I want to see the Pyramids and if something destroyed those massive structures I would mourn the loss of history and culture.  It's such a contradiction in my head and heart but it is there.  False religion has played a massive part of history.  These historic sites mean something to us in our hearts but maybe that's because we are imperfect.  The Coliseum in Rome would be great to visit and would be terrible to lose but how many of our brothers and sisters were fed to the lions at that facility?  

 

The fire at Notre Dame was a terrible tragedy and a wound on history and culture.  As Christians we weep with those who weep and many are weeping now.  Perhaps there is some way to use this tragedy to draw ones to the Truth, but I don't know how.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Shawnster]

52 minutes ago, Wozza60 said:

hat was left after Ancient Babylon was destroyed?

Quite a bit, actually.  There were still people living in Babylon in the 1st Century.  Peter went to Babylon.

 

*** ws14 1/15 pp. 22-23 par. 9 Serving Jehovah Before the Days of Distress Come ***
9 The apostle Peter may have been over the age of 50 when he moved to where the need was greater. How do we know? If he was about the same age as Jesus or a little older, it would mean that he was about 50 years old when he met with the other apostles in Jerusalem in the year 49. (Acts 15:7) Some time after that meeting, Peter went to live in Babylon, likely to preach to the many Jews who lived in that area. (Galatians 2:9) He was living there when he wrote his first inspired letter, about the year 62. (1 Peter 5:13) Moving to where the need is greater can be challenging, but Peter did not allow his age to keep him from experiencing the joy of serving Jehovah fully.
 

 

Today all that is left is ruins.  Many pieces can be seen in a museum.  

[booboo]

Perhaps another perspective to consider.  I was just thinking about world Headquarters when it was in New York City.  While we fondly remember events that took place there, visits there, etc. History of Jehovahs Witnesses was made there, our history. True worship and Gods kingdom rule revealed from those buildings. It was easy to feel quite sentimental about the move from there.  But, I  recall that the governing body said about the former Bethel, "they are just buildings that served a purpose in the past. "

 

So why not let go of sentiment to anything of this satanic old world.  If humans can achieve great feats of building while alienated from the true God, lets look with great anticipation to what will be accomplished with Jehovahs blessing as we attain to perfection in the new world.  Isa 65:17. 

17 For look! I am creating new heavens and a new earth;+

And the former things will not be called to mind,*

Nor will they come up into the heart.+

[jayrtom]

1 hour ago, carlos said:

I'm sure there will be museums in the new world which will show what life was like in the old world. If the bad things will never be forgotten so that Jehovah's sovereignty is never challenged again, why should we forget the good things?

 

I'm sure there won't be a single thing in that hypothetical museum that has to do with false religion

 

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/101989925#h=26

If such a record should someday be written, it will be written to glorify and eternally vindicate the founder of true religion, Jehovah God. Of this there can be no question.

 

[BenJepthah]

9 hours ago, Tortuga said:

I honestly would have never guessed that a burning church would have created such a variety of emotions and opinions here...

We are a highly conflicted people. Full of compassion for people who we know will likely be destroyed at Armageddon. No less for works of art and creations of Jehovah such as trees wood and stones . Or in the case of Jonah a bottlegoard vine. 

[JennyM]

On 4/16/2019 at 6:28 PM, ChocoBro said:

Yesterday at exactly the same time, a fire broke out in Al Aqsa mosque on the Temple Mount.

https://www.rt.com/news/456655-al-aqsa-mosque-jerusalem-fire/

I'm careful about what to make of this, but it is starting to seem like more than just coincidence.

I hope this is it. 

[Shawnster]

5 minutes ago, JennyM said:

I hope this is it. 

While we all hope for the destruction of false religion, this is not it.  Peace and Security first.  Then the governments will outlaw religion.  When these events happen, there will be no doubt.  Even the world will understand religion is being outlawed.

[Lewis]

Not sure if this was mentioned yet but I heard on the news this morning that there has been over 1 billions dollars in donations made towards the rebuilding of this monumental church. I mean really?

[EccentricM]

32 minutes ago, Lewis said:

Not sure if this was mentioned yet but I heard on the news this morning that there has been over 1 billions dollars in donations made towards the rebuilding of this monumental church. I mean really?

Wasted funds if it's already insured. Could go to the poor. The church is rich enough on it's own, but I doubt that extra ammount will be put in a good place.

Edited April 17, 2019 by EccentricM

[Lewis]

3 hours ago, EccentricM said:

Wasted funds if it's already insured. Could go to the poor. The church is rich enough on it's own, but I doubt that extra ammount will be put in a good place.

Totally agree.

[Qapla]

1 hour ago, Dove said:

I think that there are 2 points being discussed in this thread. .... visiting these places for their history and .... talking about them being preserved into the NS as sort of reminders of history

I thought the thread was about Notre Dame burning and people being sad about it

[dove]

36 minutes ago, Qapla said:

I thought the thread was about Notre Dame burning and people being sad about it

 

36 minutes ago, Qapla said:

I thought the thread was about Notre Dame burning and people being sad about it

Yes it is, but you haven’t read any posts about relics and artifacts being saved into the new world?

Edited April 17, 2019 by Dove