Torture of JWs in Russia

[Allabord4Jah]

I just read the top two headlines and the story.  I didn't read that the brother told the authorities the names of the brothers and sisters.  I either missed it, but I did not read the part of him denouncing names and addresses of the brothers.   They the authorities, already knew who the brothers are and where they live in that community.  There was no need to torture, but as you all know, its a free for all do what you want town to town, take the law into your own hands and twist it to your liking society in Russia!    Just keep praying for those who are weak, fearful, and we have no idea if this story is true.  His torture, yes, but the other brother was tortured and he never gave up our brothers.  I can't imagine this one, but there fear does things to people.  If he did, its between him and Jehovah! 

[Ms. Piffle]

58 minutes ago, Brother Jack said:

I just read this yesterday. I hope this isn’t true. If it is I can only imagine how this brother’s conscience must feel. He may regret this for the rest of his life. I feel sorry for him. I’m not judging him but at the same time this is why it’s so important to rely on Jehovah by praying for the strength to endure such things and working in harmony with your prayers. 

I wonder if he feels much like Peter did when he denied Jesus.  I pray that he is not overcome with guilt. 

 

None of us really know how well we would hold up under torture.  What comes to my  mind is Brother Splane's comment from the annual meeting (year text talk).  When we fall, when we are down and can't get up,   Jehovah extends his right hand to help us.  Don't just lie there.  Extend your right hand, allow Jehovah to help you to get up. 

 

My brother fell under torture.  But with Jehovah's help he can get back up.     Perhaps in the future, one of us will fall under torture too.  How thankful I am that Jehovah will help him.   How thankful I am too that it doesn't belong to us to judge one another.  

Edited March 11, 2019 by Bubbles
Did not mean to quote bro Jack.

[EccentricM]

2 hours ago, Brother Jack said:

I feel sorry for him. I’m not judging him but at the same time this is why it’s so important to rely on Jehovah by praying for the strength to endure such things and working in harmony with your prayers.

Who knows what would happen to any of us?

 

Mainly I think it is a fear of death, but I think along with prayer, a way of staying strong would be having faith that they are just trying to frighten you with the threat of death, but they cannot afford to kill you as it would count as murder (unless they started going that far, like the Nazis), but if they did it would cause a lot of problems. Also to try and allow love of other brothers remind you, that if they got infomation from you, they too would be made to go through what you are going through.

 

Of course, it's hard to think logically when under such tortures, and often pain can be enough to want to give in, just to make that stop.

 

 

[Allabord4Jah]

A dear sister in Washington State, just attended her assembly, and she said that their C.O., told the audience that soon, things will change in this nation and some of us will face similar persecution.  He said no one knows what form it will take, but it is coming, worldwide. 

[My little flower]

1 hour ago, Allabord4Jah said:

A dear sister in Washington State, just attended her assembly, and she said that their C.O., told the audience that soon, things will change in this nation and some of us will face similar persecution.  He said no one knows what form it will take, but it is coming, worldwide. 

Maybe they must have some information about the plan by the nations to attack religions which is on its way 

[Sheep]

On 2/26/2019 at 10:48 PM, Allabord4Jah said:

This on NPR News:

https://www.npr.org/2019/02/23/697234127/opinion-jehovahs-witnesses-cling-to-faith-despite-arrests-in-russia

 

13 hours ago, Brother Jack said:

I heard this live on the radio while taking a break from field service. I was disappointed to hear them say “Witnesses do not recognize any authority but God, governments especially.” That’s not true. I hope some brothers and sisters called in and told them.

 

At least that article had one accurate point to make. "They honored their faith," it said in the last paragraph. I smiled when I saw that. 

 

 

Edited March 12, 2019 by Sheep

[stargazer]

3 hours ago, Allabord4Jah said:

A dear sister in Washington State, just attended her assembly, and she said that their C.O., told the audience that soon, things will change in this nation and some of us will face similar persecution.  He said no one knows what form it will take, but it is coming, worldwide. 

he probably was referring to the future event ('soon') when nations turn on God's people.

[tekmantwo]

14 hours ago, Bubbles said:

My brother fell under torture.  But with Jehovah's help he can get back up.

I prefer to believe that our Brother held up under cruel treatment and the stories told about him are just lies intended to weaken us..

 

Think about their chain of command: they work for the first and biggest liar ever known, the original loser...

[Bek]

4 hours ago, tekmantwo said:

I prefer to believe that our Brother held up under cruel treatment and the stories told about him are just lies intended to weaken us..

 

Think about their chain of command: they work for the first and biggest liar ever known, the original loser...

I have seen a YouTube video of an interview with the brother in question in Russian. In it, the brother whose name is, by the way, Evgeniy Kayryak, describes the ordeal and admits that after the torture, he "had to answer questions the way the investigator wanted for fear of losing life and limb", but he does not say he revealed the identities of our fellow believers.

 

 

 

  

[Ms. Piffle]

6 hours ago, tekmantwo said:

I prefer to believe that our Brother held up under cruel treatment and the stories told about him are just lies intended to weaken us..

 

Think about their chain of command: they work for the first and biggest liar ever known, the original loser... 

The purpose of my post was/is to support my brother whether stories true or not.  But if he did answer questions, for us to please not be quick to judge him as none of us really know if we will hold up under torture.  And personally speaking, I do see him as a faithful brother.  I keep him in my prayers, and pray that if stories true, that he not be overcome with sadness and guilt.  Many of our faithful brothers have had moments of imperfection,  (I used Peter as an example). 

[Thomas Walker]

There are many variables in this story. To me, the three most important ones are:

 

1) Is any of it true? Torture has never been an effective means at gaining information. You tell your interrogators what they want to hear. That's why it's worse than illegal, and immoral: It's stupid, too. If our brother decided to tell them whatever they wanted to hear, then who knows what the facts actually were. It makes no practical difference to other JW's in Russia. They're ignoring their own laws as it suits them. If they decide to go after a random citizen they think is a JW, they don't need evidence or 'just cause'. They haven't had any evidence, or needed any. Not so far. They're under no obligation to tell the truth to their own people. And if they beat the words they wanted to hear out of an innocent civilian, it's only more evidence of where they stand in this debate. It's far more illuminating about them, than it could ever be about where our brother puts his faith.

 

2) Standing Firm. We had our Circuit Assembly this weekend, and the Baptism talk was on the topic of 'We are not the sort that shrink back'. He made the point that 'chickening out' in the face of a bad day, or an intimidating environment, doesn't mean we're 'shrinking back'. When we tell stories about the brothers in the Camps during WW2, we're all proud of how 'a'most none' of us signed on the dotted line to go free. But that 'Almost' is still relevant. I remember reading at least one experience of a sister who signed away her faith, regretted it, and took it back afterward; rededicating herself totally in regret to the one moments she couldn't hold out.

 

I know this is the part we're all concerned about. We always say 'God won't let us be pushed beyond our limits'. So when we hear a story like this, we wonder about ourselves. There are numerous cases of the Giants of our faith being near-suicidal over bad days. But when Elijah cried for death, the Angel was right there at his elbow instantly. When Jonah thought he was going to be lynched, God's voice was the next sound he heard. 

 

If a parent tells their child a lie, and then hits that little kid until they say it's truth; that doesn't make the parent right. It doesn't even mean the kid has changed his mind. God knows the difference, and certainly the Brothers do.

 

Most of us won't experience this kind of outright opposition until the End of this story. And speaking for myself, that's the scary part: That if it happens to us, and we can't hold out? Will we still be able to make it right again, with that little time to go? To that, I say this: Satan challenged Jesus. Why would he bother? Because when Satan made his tempting offers, Jesus was human, and hungry, and alone. Satan was gambling that there's a difference between being faithful to God when at his right hand in heaven, and being faithful while strung up on a stake. When Tribulation breaks out, the Weight of the World will be dialled up a few degrees harder than anything else before. But so will God's counter-moves. And we do know which side has a history of winning.

 

Which brings us to:

 

3)  God's still got this. There are numerous examples of our brothers going into hiding, and having that moment where the soldiers are looking directly at them, but see nothing. Nowhere in the bible did god have a perfect plan, that one of his own people messed up in a moment of weakness when under major trial. It's odd to think it, but the Congregation has larger rifts and struggles when there's arguments and gossip than when it's under direct attack.

 

We can't imagine what this brother is going through right now, and having these reports going international as a result isn't going to make it any easier for him. There's a difference between being broken and being defeated. But God has a special knack for fixing broken things; and a special love for broken people. Now, more than ever, this man is in God's keeping.

[Ms. Piffle]

3 minutes ago, Thomas Walker said:

 

We can't imagine what this brother is going through right now, and having these reports going international as a result isn't going to make it any easier for him. There's a difference between being broken and being defeated. But God has a special knack for fixing broken things; and a special love for broken people. Now, more than ever, this man is in God's keeping.

Very well said.  

[shali]

Depending on where that story originated, it could of been written falsely that a brother gave them information and names in order to lower the morale of other brothers.  It's a common tactic - "So-and-So already told us" in order to get you to agree or talk. They did this in the concentration camps - told other brothers that one of there's compromised and signed when, in reality, no one signed - in order to get others to cave in.  

[ChocoBro]

Just a question, do we really still need to harbour on what our brother may or may not have done? I wish the question hadn't come up in the first place. It doesn't matter what he did or did not say, what effect it may or may not have and it is presumptuous to pretend we would have done better in the same situation.

 

I just noticed we've been dwelling on this for many days. Let's drop the subject, can we?

[Jothob]

4 hours ago, ChocoBro said:

Just a question, do we really still need to harbour on what our brother may or may not have done? I wish the question hadn't come up in the first place. It doesn't matter what he did or did not say, what effect it may or may not have and it is presumptuous to pretend we would have done better in the same situation.

 

I just noticed we've been dwelling on this for many days. Let's drop the subject, can we?

Well said, I totally agree....

[Ms. Piffle]

2 hours ago, Jothob said:

Well said, I totally agree....

Ditto

[tekmantwo]

On 3/12/2019 at 8:04 AM, Bubbles said:

And personally speaking, I do see him as a faithful brother.  I keep him in my prayers, and pray that if stories true, that he not be overcome with sadness and guilt.  Many of our faithful brothers have had moments of imperfection,  (I used Peter as an example).

I apologise if you were offended by my post; I was not picking at you, I just chose you to quote because your post was closest. I didn't feel like going looking for another post as a vehicle to my comment...

 

No offense was intended.....

[Bek]

21 hours ago, ChocoBro said:

Just a question, do we really still need to harbour on what our brother may or may not have done? I wish the question hadn't come up in the first place. It doesn't matter what he did or did not say, what effect it may or may not have and it is presumptuous to pretend we would have done better in the same situation.

 

I just noticed we've been dwelling on this for many days. Let's drop the subject, can we?

Sorry, it is my mistake. I should not have posted the news about the brother failing to hold up under torture. 

 

I was genuinely sorry for him, but at the same time, I was surprised that he gave in so easily only after two hours' of torture.

 

Mind you, it was not a sadistic form of torture where they pull out your finger nails with pliers or burn you with an iron etc, but a standard form of it practised often at official law‐enforcement bodies in our parts. 

 

Worse things have happened to brothers and will likely happen more in future. So we need to be ready for anything, including death.

 

I am not sure such things will ever happen in Western countries though, but it is a daily reality for many brothers in many parts of the world, including in my region.

 

But as you say, let's drop the topic. 

 

 

 

Edited March 14, 2019 by Tortuga

[Ms. Piffle]

8 hours ago, tekmantwo said:

I apologise if you were offended by my post; I was not picking at you, I just chose you to quote because your post was closest. I didn't feel like going looking for another post as a vehicle to my comment...

 

No offense was intended.....

Thank you.  I do apppreciate that but I promise, no offense taken.  But it  did get me thinking that some may have misinterpeted my comments.  I am not so good at putting my thoughts, feelings on 'paper'.  

[EccentricM]

8 hours ago, Bek said:

I was surprised that he gave in so easily only after two hours' of torture...  a standard form of it practised often at official law‐enforcement bodies in our parts. 

Why would "any" torture be withstandable for two hours? Does that include the suffocating, electric shocks and beating? If endurance for you guys for so long under such conditions is seen as "standard", Russians really are as tough as they say! (There is a reputation of the stereotype on Russians being "hard").

[tuntun]

 

in my country the authorities do not need sophisticated equipment to extract information from defendants in criminal cases. what they need is only a few punches.

no offense

Edited March 14, 2019 by tuntun

[Old]

"... withstood only two hours of torture..."

I think we should limit our commenting on this avenue to those that have withstood two hours of torture, ... anyone?

 

Edited March 14, 2019 by Old

[tuntun]

two hours of torture is not a 'only'

[Bek]

41 minutes ago, EccentricM said:

Why would "any" torture be withstandable for two hours? Does that include the suffocating, electric shocks and beating? If endurance for you guys for so long under such conditions is seen as "standard", Russians really are as tough as they say! (There is a reputation of the stereotype on Russians being "hard").

Yes. Russians are tough compared to Westerners, but Central Asians and those in the Caucuses are even tougher than the Russians. We still have a lot of men in the traditional sense of the word. That is not to say that the West does not have them. It does, but feminism and effeminisation are having a negative impact on many. No offence. 

 

I personally would not be afraid of institutionalised torture by police or KGB, because they use only light forms that do not kill. I have not heard of a single fatality from police torture yet in our region. If I was tortured in prison, that would be different ball game. I could easily be killed without any serious consequences.  

 

 

Edited March 14, 2019 by Bek

[EccentricM]

6 minutes ago, Bek said:

feminism and effeminisation are having a negative impact on many. No offence. 

None taken I agree. It would seem a lot of you are "physically" tougher seemingly too. I get this image of a Russian man being shot, and him looking down then just turning around and walking himself into a hospital casually. 😄