Governing Body update #8

[Eejay]

10 hours ago, CharlieJ said:

why do we need this money from Satan's organization anyway?

I think the correct undestanding regarding the money is that explained here:

"The editor-in-chief of the historical Norwegian Christian daily Dagen, Vebjørn Selbekk, under the eloquent title “Now Comes the Religious Taste Police,” wrote that “the state support for religious communities is not gentle gifts from the public sector, but a compensation for the constitutional financial support that the state gives to the Church of Norway… But now a group of Norwegians has been deprived of that right.”

 

So really, on principle I would see us necessarily receiving what is in essence a tax refund for money we can't withold in the first instance as taxpayers, but which we definitely would not contribute if we had a choice. We have a responsibility to actually oppose this unfair measure on principle. If it was possible to receive a refund on taxes used for armaments, we would be obligated to do the same.

 

7 hours ago, carlos said:

apostates who are stirring the pot

 

This is the most important factor. Governments have every right to investigate allegations of human rights violations or criminality, and employ sanctions if proven. This is regardless of religious organisational status. Romans 13:4 makes it clear that this is actually Jehovah's will.

However, as in the 1st Century, (Acts 17:4), religious opponents muddy the waters with half-baked emotive accusations that have the effect of dividing opinion, fuelling prejudice, disrupting our preaching work, wasting time and resources etc. And, as in the 1st Century, (Acts 25:11), we use whatever legal recourse is available to challenge these baseless accusations. Sometimes we are not immediately successful, as the current experiences in Russia demonstate. But when we are successful, as we have been on many occasions, it has been recognised in many circles that a court victory for Jehovah's Witnesses in the battle for freedom of religion is a victory for all members of a civilised society. And it is Jehovah's will for us to fight such battles Ph.1:7.

Edited December 17, 2022 by Eejay

[Keep Fighting]

Its not about money because Jehovah say in Haggai 2:8.

 

The response from us resently is: 

"Jehovah's Witnesses in Norway are not going to change their beliefs and methods just to satisfy the State Administrator. This means that the beliefs and procedures that the State Trustee dislikes will continue to stand."

 

From the news ( translated)

Jehovah's Witnesses criticize the State Administrator for not being able to point to "any relevant court decisions against the religious community or its members, nor to reports to the police, child protection or other relevant government agencies."

They also point out that the State Administrator has not mentioned examples or names of victims of coercion or negative social control, but relies on "letters from two or three disaffected former Jehovah's Witnesses..."

The religious community recently announced that it will consider legal action to retain its registration.

Fears Russian conditions

Jehovah's Witnesses believe the decision by the State Administrator is a "violation" of their rights and "discrimination on religious grounds".

A loss of registration will mean, among other things, that the congregations cannot perform weddings.

They also fear further stigmatization as a group and that Russian conditions will eventually arise in Norway. Jehovah's Witnesses are banned in Russia.

 

Im sure your prayrs are welcome. 🙏

 

 

[Qapla]

Just because a news story stresses the loss of government money doesn't mean that our main concern is financial. The focus of us is the loss of freedom to follow Bible based instruction, like disfellowshipping wrongdoers to keep the congregation clean, not financial gain from government handouts. But - this stand does not sell the news or garner readers ... reporting on the loss of government money does. Therefore, those reporting on this issue stress the loss of money - not the loss of religious freedoms.

 

We have to make sure we are not distracted by their bias and trust the FDS for trying to keep our organization clean and in keeping with Bible teachings, not with societal whims, false reasonings and emphasis on money.

 

 

Edited December 17, 2022 by Qapla

[Dawid]

The Sun appeared today, finally

[Parale]

On 12/17/2022 at 12:02 AM, carlos said:

Also I'm not sure why many have been sharing these worldly articles from Mr. Introvigne. He appears to be a staunch Catholic who supports many false religions including Scientology and more than a dozen cults.  Shouldn't we rely upon what the Faithful Slave has published and not upon someone who is very deeply embedded with Babylon the Great? 

 

FWIW, the Faithful Slave has published both quotes from Mr. Introvigne in the Awake! magazine, and on the jw.org website, along with a video featuring Mr. Introvigne:

 

https://www.jw.org/en/news/legal/by-region/russia/dr-massimo-introvigne-interview/

[Eejay]

 

3 hours ago, Parale said:

On 12/17/2022 at 12:02 AM, carlos said:

Also I'm not sure why many have been sharing these worldly articles from Mr. Introvigne. He appears to be a staunch Catholic who supports many false religions including Scientology and more than a dozen cults.  Shouldn't we rely upon what the Faithful Slave has published and not upon someone who is very deeply embedded with Babylon the Great? 

 

I think it is only fair to point out that attributing this quote criticising the referencing of Dr Massimo Introvigne to @carlos is actually rather misleading as to its origin. Some may read the whole thread and realise that this quote  is actually a cut-and-paste from another contributor, @CharlieJ, but many may not.

 

Dr Introvigne may well have some rather eccentric specialities in his interests, but so do many other authorities that we regularly quote. I find Dr Introvigne's reports and comments on Jehovah's Witnesses to be factual, fair, and generally well-reasoned. They are very useful in getting a feel for detailed background on many of the issues we face internationally in the fields of human rights and freedom of religion. His is not a spiritual perspective and neither is he an advocate for any particular religious view, unlike the organisations whose activities he exposes. 

[carlos]

9 hours ago, Eejay said:

it is only fair to point out that attributing this quote criticising the referencing of Dr Massimo Introvigne to @carlos is actually rather misleading as to its origin

 

Thanks, Eoin. 😊

That was not intentional. It's a glitch of the software that happens sometimes. 

[Keep Fighting]

Jehovah Witness are sueing the Norwegian goverment. 

Is the headlines in the newspaper right now. The front page of the biggest news paper for some min.

 

https://direkte.vg.no/nyhetsdognet/news/jehovas-vitner-saksoeker-staten.Gdof8BLLr?utm_source=vgfront&utm_content=hovedlopet_row1_pos1&utm_medium=df-86-b442098b

(Google translate follow)

Jehovah's Witnesses are suing the state

The summons against the state, represented by the Ministry of Children and Families, was sent to the Oslo District Court on 21 December, Jehovah's Witnesses confirm in an email to Vårt Land.

 

The reason is that this autumn the ministry upheld the State Administrator in Oslo and Viken's decision to deny Jehovah's Witnesses state funding for 2021 due to the religious community's exclusionary practice, they state.

[JudyO]

So, it's the discrimination aspect, and not the funds we object to. Jehovah would make up for the lack of money, no question. But we object to the government trying to influence what Bible principles we support.

[walkr2]

 
I noted that part, Lucy. I'm not quite what I would consider elderly, nor am I by any means infirm. But I have been treating the current situation as part of a dangerous pandemic, and therefore taking a very careful approach. Up until recently I was attending meetings in person, even though I always sat in the second school away from the other mostly maskless attendees. I didn't shake hands with anyone, nor did I even talk to a brother or sister face-to-face who was not wearing a mask. Then, more recently, Canada declared that masks are highly recommended (again) for indoor gatherings. (The Canadian government officially said that, and then the Canada branch followed with an announcement to the congregations.) Since then I don't even go to the hall anymore, but attend the meetings on Zoom. I fully intend on waiting until things feel safer before attempting to venture to in person meetings again.
 
Happily I am in a congregation that accepts that, never questioning my decision to do so. But thank you anyway for the reminder of what the Update said.

Yes, I agree with you! Everyone is not in the same “boat” when it comes to how they’re handling this virus situation. Jehovah, I’m sure, understands each person’s situation.
He doesn’t condemn us for it and neither should anyone else. It’s not that you’re missing out on the same information everyone else is getting, you’re just getting it a different way.
Hang in there because it’s almost over and we can happily be together once and for all. That’s what I’m doing!

With Agape love,

Voni in Des Moines

[minister159]

2 hours ago, JudyO said:

So, it's the discrimination aspect, and not the funds we object to. Jehovah would make up for the lack of money, no question. But we object to the government trying to influence what Bible principles we support.

 

I like this analogy:

 

Our club, our rules. If you join our club, you have to abide by the rules if you want to stay in it. No one is forced to join our club and no one can say they didn't understand the rules when they joined. Simple. 

[Keep Fighting]

https://www.aftenposten.no/norge/i/GM0yxl/statsforvalteren-i-oslo-og-viken-trekker-tilbake-jehovas-vitners-registrering-som-trossamfunn

 

From tonight news:

From the goverment answear today:

Loss of registration means that Jehovah's Witnesses no longer have the right to submit claims for government subsidies. It also means that society loses the authority to marry.

 

If the decision is left untested, the decision to deny Jehovah's Witnesses state support, and possibly withdraw the registration as a religious community, will cause Norway to go in the opposite direction of international law, Jehovah's Witnesses write in an e-mail to NTB.

 

The religious community further writes that a withdrawal of the registration would be a danger signal of a step backwards for religious freedom and human rights in Norway.

 

Jehovah's Witnesses have been part of Norwegian society for 130 years and have had the right to receive state support for more than 30 years, they state.

 

The subsidy for Jehovah's Witnesses' 12,686 members last year amounted to approximately NOK 16 million.

[carlos]

15 hours ago, minister159 said:

Our club, our rules. If you join our club, you have to abide by the rules if you want to stay in it. No one is forced to join our club and no one can say they didn't understand the rules when they joined. Simple. 

 

Imagine a minister in Norwegian parliament is caught stealing or involved in a sexual scandal. Wouldn't that person be kicked out of the government? Yet they criticize us for doing exactly the same thing. Kind of hypocritical.

[Liam Davies]

2 hours ago, carlos said:

 

Imagine a minister in Norwegian parliament is caught stealing or involved in a sexual scandal. Wouldn't that person be kicked out of the government? Yet they criticize us for doing exactly the same thing. Kind of hypocritical.

I think the difference is Bro Carlos that children (minors) cant be ministers in the Norwegian parliament.

[carlos]

1 hour ago, Liam Davies said:

I think the difference is Bro Carlos that children (minors) cant be ministers in the Norwegian parliament.

 

That's irrelevant, Liam.

 

The point is that any organization (religious, political, commercial, educational, whatever) has the right to cancel the membership of any member who violates its rules. If a child seriously misbehaves at school he will be expelled, even though he's a minor. The Norwegian government is trying to dictate the rules for a religious organization and that's something they absolutely don't have the right to do. That behavior is typical of corrupt dictatorships like Russia or third-world countries, but it's absolutely unacceptable in a modern democracy.

[Sepie93]

 
That's irrelevant, Liam.
 
The point is that any organization (religious, political, commercial, educational, whatever) has the right to cancel the membership of any member who violates its rules. If a child seriously misbehaves at school he will be expelled, even though he's a minor. The Norwegian government is trying to dictate the rules for a religious organization and that's something they absolutely don't have the right to do. That behavior is typical of corrupt dictatorships like Russia or third-world countries, but it's absolutely unacceptable in a modern democracy.

And that's, imo, is the "interesting" part of this all.. In the name of "human rights", "protection of minors" or "shelter for the weak" they want to take our registration. But by doing so they cross the line of human rights. Hypocrisy indeed.

Verstuurd vanaf mijn ELE-L29 met Tapatalk

[Sepie93]

Btw, did the Norwegian government allready withdraw the registration of the organization? Because some news sites seemed to suggest that. (at least.. The translation of the articles did)

Verstuurd vanaf mijn ELE-L29 met Tapatalk

[jwhess]

37 minutes ago, carlos said:

 

That's irrelevant, Liam.

 

The point is that any organization (religious, political, commercial, educational, whatever) has the right to cancel the membership of any member who violates its rules. If a child seriously misbehaves at school he will be expelled, even though he's a minor. The Norwegian government is trying to dictate the rules for a religious organization and that's something they absolutely don't have the right to do. That behavior is typical of corrupt dictatorships like Russia or third-world countries, but it's absolutely unacceptable in a modern democracy.

Br. Carlos, it may be irrelevant to us but we are not the legal system.  To a lawyer or association out to protect children, this may be a prime focus for them.  they don't use our perspective.

[Francy]

16 minutes ago, Sepie93 said:

Btw, did the Norwegian government allready withdraw the registration of the organization? Because some news sites seemed to suggest that.

Probably yes, every artcile I've read on this says that, I think the update was made when this was just a threat

[Keep Fighting]

1 hour ago, Sepie93 said:

Btw, did the Norwegian government allready withdraw the registration of the organization? Because some news sites seemed to suggest that. (at least.. The translation of the articles did)

Verstuurd vanaf mijn ELE-L29 met Tapatalk
 

Yes they did: from the goverment webside.

https://www.statsforvalteren.no/nb/oslo-og-viken/folk-og-samfunn/tros--og-livssynssamfunn/jehovas-vitner-taper-registrering-som-trossamfunn/

Google translate: 

Jehovah's Witnesses lose registration as a religious community. The state administrator in Oslo and Viken has decided to withdraw Jehovah's Witnesses' registration as a religious community under the Religious Communities Act.

[runner92]

So are they going to hold the same energy for the Catholic Church for refusing communion to and excommunicating people who don't follow their rules? We already know the answer. SMH

Edited December 23, 2022 by runner92

[Violin]

On 12/23/2022 at 11:00 AM, runner92 said:

So are they going to hold the same energy for the Catholic Church for refusing communion to and excommunicating people who don't follow their rules? We already know the answer. SMH

I think the difference is that an excommunicated catholic is cut off from communion but not from the church community and catholic family.  My parents excommunicated themselves from the church when they were baptized and all our catholic family still talked to them.  Whereas a witness child would lose all association in the congregation and with extended family, which is likely the human rights difference the government is addressing (of course I agree the gov has no right to meddle in a religious community's teaching).  Its alarming to hear this happening in Norway as it most definitely is an issue of religious freedom.

[Eejay]

1 hour ago, Violin said:

Whereas a witness child would lose all association in the congregation and with extended family

 

Although they would retain the love and support of immediate family, including a personal bible study. Perhaps that could even be something they previously lacked. They could quickly regain their congregational connections with the right attitude.

 

This Watchtower really helps:

*** w01 10/1 p. 16 How Can You Help a “Prodigal” Child? ***
When a Minor Is Disfellowshipped
12 What if a minor who lives with his parents gets involved in serious wrongdoing and because of his unrepentant attitude is expelled from the congregation? Since the child lives with his parents, they are still responsible for instructing and disciplining him in harmony with God’s Word. How can this be done?—Proverbs 6:20-22; 29:17.
13 It may be possible—indeed, it would be best—to give such instruction and discipline during a private study of the Bible. A parent must look beyond the child’s hardened attitude and try to see what is in his heart. What is the whole range of his spiritual sickness? (Proverbs 20:5) Can the tender part of his heart be reached? What scriptures can be used effectively? The apostle Paul assures us: “The word of God is alive and exerts power and is sharper than any two-edged sword and pierces even to the dividing of soul and spirit, and of joints and their marrow, and is able to discern thoughts and intentions of the heart.” (Hebrews 4:12) Yes, parents can do more than simply tell their offspring not to get involved in wrongdoing again. They can try to initiate and nurture the healing process.
 

[Sofia]

https://cne.news/artikel/2289-jehovah-s-witnesses-norway-lose-registration-religious-community

 

 

the Jehovah's Witnesses have already indicated that they will not change their practices.

The removal of registration as a religious community does not ban the activities of the Jehovah's Witnesses, Vart Land writes. They can continue to practise their religion

 

 

[LoneWanderer]

IMHO losing the right in Norway to wed couples is a sad consequence of a highly unjust decision by biased officials.

Sure, Witness couples can still go to a local city hall with two witnesses, and pay, what USD 100-200 in Oslo (https://www.oslo.kommune.no/radhuset/vielse-i-oslo-radhus/#toc-4), and have their marriage officiated. But I am sure many like me, who are privileged to have been wed at a Kingdom Hall, have especially fond memories of their special day. Yes, you can always go to the Kingdom Hall for a wedding talk after the legal part, but personally I’m big on this “everything under the same roof” approach 😉

Edited December 27, 2022 by LoneWanderer